Producers and consumers

[Hans Blaster]

Musk continues to lower the prices. He predicts within 10 years we will have an abundance at very low prices so that they will be plenty for everyone. With no government regulation needed. Musk has no intention of gouging people to put money in his pocket.

So what's Musk's model for drastic reduction in lift-to-orbit prices? How is he* going to reduce costs? (Since this is allegedly the "science" sub-forum")

*by "he" I mean the SpaceX engineers. Musk is, of course, neither an engineer, nor rocket designer.

 

[Diamond72]

How is he* going to reduce costs?

You push the delete button and you eliminate waste. Look at Space X and the way they land rockets. Nasa use to buy rockets for Billions and now they buy them from Musk for Millions of dollars. The CEO of Space X used to work for NASA. She joined up with Trump because she thought it was good for our space program. Her husband is still an engineer for NASA.

The same with his other company: Tesla. You get rid of the waste and the things that are not needed. There is a big transition from the drawing board to actually building something in the real world. Musk has built a giga factory that puts out one million cars a years. He has been working on perfecting that. Now he is building 20 mega factories. So by the year 2030 he plans to build 20 million cars a year. The total number of cars built in 2030 will be 100 million. So he will control 20% of the market with his electric cars.

He tries to build everything himself rather than contract it all out. So that helps to keep the cost under control.

 

[Hans Blaster]

You push the delete button and you eliminate waste.

That's rather vague. How do you "delete" the waste? What waste is still in the SpaceX launch platform?

Look at Space X and the way they land rockets. Nasa use to buy rockets for Billions and now they buy them from Musk for Millions of dollars. The CEO of Space X used to work for NASA. She joined up with Trump because she thought it was good for our space program. Her husband is still an engineer for NASA.

Past results do not indicate future performance. (At least that's what it *should* say in the SpaceX prospectus, but given Musk's flaunting of SEC regulation...)

The same with his other company: Tesla. You get rid of the waste and the things that are not needed. There is a big transition from the drawing board to actually building something in the real world. Musk has built a giga factory that puts out one million cars a years. He has been working on perfecting that. Now he is building 20 mega factories. So by the year 2030 he plans to build 20 million cars a year. The total number of cars built in 2030 will be 100 million. So he will control 20% of the market with his electric cars.

Sounds like tech company vaporware. No wonder the share price was so puffed up -- people bought this hype. (It's also got nothing to do with making rockets cheaper.)

He tries to build everything himself rather than contract it all out. So that helps to keep the cost under control.

Unless the outside contractors are better at it than you are.

 

[Ophiolite]

I was not raised where you reward people for being unproductive. I was always taught that everyone has to do the best they can to contribute to the common cause to the best of their ability.

What if through incompetence, indifference, or ignorance an individual has a negative impact upon any company or organisation for which they might work? Wouldn't it be to the advantage to the rest of society to pay that person not to work?
That's a rhetorical question. The answer is a definitive yes.

Of course, socialism is just a legal way to rob peter to pay paul.

Or an organised way to express the insitinctive cooperative tendencies of humans to support those less able to support themselves. The abusive use of the "Survival of the fittest" meme to justify indifference to human suffering is as unattractive today as it was when first introduced.

Would you turn down a million, billion, or trillion dollars if you had an investment group want to give it to you?

Of course, if I had no project which I thought worthy of development, or I lacked confidence in being able to see it through to a successful conclusion. Any other approach would be akin to cynical theft.

 

[Neutral Observer]

Of course, socialism is just a legal way to rob peter to pay paul.

Duh, every form of government is just a legalized means for one group of people to steal from another group of people. To think that one form of government is somehow immune to corruption is simply naive.

Because governments, no matter what kind, have one very, very big problem, they're run by people. People like you to be precise.

 

[Diamond72]

People like you to be precise.

People like me will run the government during the kingdom age. My grandfather was a mayor for 22 years but I do not have much interest in the political arena at this point in time.

 

[Diamond72]

That's a rhetorical question. The answer is a definitive yes.

A lot of downs syndrome babies are aborted because there are doctors who feel they do not have the right to live.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

There is a faulty premise to say there is something to be consumed.

I simply used the same word you did when you said, "Socialism is a system where one group produces and gives it to another group to consume. You have a group of people who produce nothing of what they want to consume."

I saw a "video" on youtube where Musk turned down 1.2 trillion dollars from an investment group. Mostly because he did not need the money. He would rather go public than have private investors. Jeff Benzo sold 10% of Amazon for a million dollars. Now that 10% is worth 100 billion dollars. I wanted to invest in Benzo but they said he was high-risk at the time. I should have followed my premonition.

Would you turn down a million, billion, or trillion dollars if you had an investment group want to give it to you?

Musk continues to lower the prices. He predicts within 10 years we will have an abundance at very low prices so that they will be plenty for everyone. With no government regulation needed. Musk has no intention of gouging people to put money in his pocket.

Not sure how that's relevant...

View attachment 327018

The problem with socialism, as with other idealistic social systems, is human nature. Thatcher's quote makes the point.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

So what's Musk's model for drastic reduction in lift-to-orbit prices? How is he* going to reduce costs? (Since this is allegedly the "science" sub-forum")

*by "he" I mean the SpaceX engineers. Musk is, of course, neither an engineer, nor rocket designer.

Rocket reusability and efficiency.

Musk may not be an engineer, but, judging from his guided tour of the Spacex launch site, he has a surprisingly detailed understanding of rocketry, from engines to dynamics. He also has some good ideas on project management principles - unfortunately, his man-management and social skills seem to be as poor as his technical skills are good...

 

[Hans Blaster]

Rocket reusability and efficiency.

Musk may not be an engineer, but, judging from his guided tour of the Spacex launch site, he has a surprisingly detailed understanding of rocketry, from engines to dynamics. He also has some good ideas on project management principles - unfortunately, his man-management and social skills seem to be as poor as his technical skills are good...

Not sure how much more they can squeeze out. Perhaps a factor of 2 or 3 (which would be fantastic, but still not "cheap").

The smaller, Falcon9 is basically fully reusable and the same rocket is used as a reusable booster on the Falcon Heavy. (I'm sure they'd like to extend the number trips made by each rocket and reduce ground turn around time and cost, but I suspect we are a ways a way from when rocket reuse looks like the check process used between car rentals. They may already be ahead of the Space Shuttle program in terms of require inter-flight maintenance. ) The manned capsule is also multi-mission.

The core stage of the Falcon Heavy is a bit harder to deal with given how high up and down range it must go. I don't know their plans but perhaps they want to replace it largely with Starship launches using its Superheavy booster. We'll see how that works out.

(I continue this sub-thread, since rocketry is at least board on-topic.)

 

[Diamond72]

What waste is still in the SpaceX launch platform?

Before SpaceX, NASA use to crash the rocket. So everything was lost. Now they land the rocket so they can be used again. They use to use the space shuttle which could be landed like a regular airplane. But now the actual rockets are landed and used over again.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Before SpaceX, NASA use to crash the rocket. So everything was lost. Now they land the rocket so they can be used again. They use to use the space shuttle which could be landed like a regular airplane. But now the actual rockets are landed and used over again.

I know this. I didn't ask why SpaceX was cheaper than the old NASA rockets. I asked what waste was left for SpaceX to trim and lower costs. (I also started discussing this in the post just above yours, though you might have been composing when it was posted.)

 

[All Becomes New]

Musk is not a saint. He's not a Christian. "What does it profit a man to gain the whole world..."

I'm disabled. I can't work. Do you believe in safety nets?

I'm not advocating for socialism, far from it.

 

[Neutral Observer]

Musk is not a saint.

Who among us is?

He's not a Christian.

Who are we to judge?

https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/entertainment/2022/january/sure-ill-be-saved-elon-musk-says-he-agrees-with-teachings-of-jesus

"What does it profit a man to gain the whole world..."

You're suggesting that he's lost his soul, but by what authority do you make this assertion?

Personally, I'm willing to cut him some slack, which I seem to have to do with a lot of people, myself included.

 

[All Becomes New]

Who are we to judge?

https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/entert...n-musk-says-he-agrees-with-teachings-of-jesus

You're suggesting that he's lost his soul, but by what authority do you make this assertion?

Doesn't sound like Musk made a real commitment to me. What are his fruits? He cares about his own agenda. "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle..." I'd say the same thing about Jordan Peterson.

 

[Diamond72]

He cares about his own agenda.

His claim is that he wants to populate Mars. I have heard that at some point in time all the planets will have life on them. Some people believe with God everything is alive and nothing is dead.

Musk thinks it would be easy to establish an atmosphere on Mars. NASA does not agree with him.

 

[All Becomes New]

His claim is that he wants to populate Mars. I have heard that at some point in time all the planets will have life on them. Some people believe with God everything is alive and nothing is dead.

Musk thinks it would be easy to establish an atmosphere on Mars. NASA does not agree with him.

You were rather selective in what you quoted from what I said.

 

[Diamond72]

You were rather selective in what you quoted from what I said.

A little bit of something is better than a whole lot of nothing.

 

[All Becomes New]

A little bit of something is better than a whole lot of nothing.

Or it could just be manipulation.

 

[Diamond72]

Or it could just be manipulation.

Just the opposite. Manipulation requires effort.