Problems Within Dispensationalism

[Clare73]

My unbelief of your literal interpretation, or your unbelief of God's own statement that he gives prophecy in riddles and not clearly (Numbers 12:8).

Neither Ezra nor Nehemiah even implied that the promises made in Ezekiel had been fulfilled. They would not have said any such thing, because they KNEW that these promises had NOT been fulfilled. The promise they were saying had been fulfilled was the promise made in Jeremiah that Judah would return after 70 years. That was a different promise than the ones I quoted from Ezekiel.

Strawman. . .

There being nowhere in Ezekiel 45-48 that the city is called Jerusalem or the land is called Canaan, neither Ezra nor Nehemiah viewed the prophecy as literal regarding Israel (as you do) and, therefore, did not follow its instructions.

 

[Biblewriter]

Are you denying that every person who comes to salvation through faith in Christ is a part of His New Covenant Church?


.

Every person who NOW comes to salvation through faith in Christ BECOMES part of His New Covenant church.But the Bible EXPLICITLY says that the Lord will come and take his church away. There is much debate about WHEN that will happen. But NO ONE even IMAGINES that it will take place any later than when the Lord returns in power nd glory to judge the wicked. But the scriptures PLAINLY teach that AFTER the Lord so returns, He will brng all Israel home. (Isaiah 66:15-20) and, as He brings them home, He will purge the rebels from among them. (Ezekiel 20:33-38) Then, both Isaiah 4:2-4 and Zechariah 12:10-14 EXPLICITLY say that all of Israel that remains will repent and turn to Himself, as is also CLEARLY stated in Jeremiah 31:13-34 and in Romans 11:26.

 

[Biblewriter]

Strawman. . .

Neither Ezra nor Nehemiah viewed the prophecy of Ezekiel as literal regarding Israel and, therefore, did not follow its instructions.

You cannot find EVEN ONE statement in EITHER of these books to back up that claim. Nor can you find EVEN ONE statement in EITHER of those books that even IMPLIES that they even had the promises made in Ezekiel in mind.

They COULD NOT have had the promises made in Ezekiel in mind, because they KNEW that the return that they had made, although it had indeed been promised in Jeremiah, was NOT the one promised in Ezekiel.

 

[BABerean2]

Then, both Isaiah 4:2-4 and Zechariah 12:10-14 EXPLICITLY say that all of Israel that remains will repent and turn to Himself,

The Dispensationalist's use of Zechariah 12:10 for a future salvation of modern Orthodox Jews outside of the Church falls apart in the New Testament.

Zec 12:10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.


John saw the fulfillment of the piercing at Calvary in the passage below.


Joh 19:31 Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
Joh 19:32 Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him.
Joh 19:33 But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.
Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
Joh 19:35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.
Joh 19:36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "NOT ONE OF HIS BONES SHALL BE BROKEN."
Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."


When was the Spirit poured out in Jerusalem?
Read Acts chapter 2.
On the Day of Pentecost the Spirit was poured out in Jerusalem, and about 3,000 from "all the house of Israel" (Acts 2:36) mourned when they realized they had crucified their Messiah.


Rom 9:27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.


All man-made Bible doctrines are revealed not by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but rather by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.


Why do Dispensationalists try to ignore John 19:37?

.

 

[Clare73]

You cannot find EVEN ONE statement in EITHER of these books to back up that claim. Nor can you find EVEN ONE statement in EITHER of those books that even IMPLIES that they even had the promises made in Ezekiel in mind.

They COULD NOT have had the promises made in Ezekiel in mind, because they KNEW that the return that they had made, although it had indeed been promised in Jeremiah, was NOT the one promised in Ezekiel.

That's what I said. . .
there being nowhere in Ezekiel 45-48 that the city is called Jerusalem or the land is called Canaan,
neither Ezra nor Nehemiah viewed the prophecy as literal regarding Israel (as you do) and, therefore,
did not follow its instructions.

 

[ralliann]

I'll take this incrementally.

I completely agree but before get to far down this avenue we should ALL first acknowledge something many Dispensationalists may not know: The entire rest of Christendom does NOT view Israel as eschatologically relevant. There are five main eschatologies: Historic Premillennialism, Amillennialism, Postmillennialism, Idealism, and Dispensational Premillennialism, and only DPism considers Israel or its temple relevant. Everyone else says no to that premise. This view was invented in the mid-1800s by John Darby.

Is Amillennialism dispensational? I did not think it was. I am mainly ignorant of these things. I consider myself Amillennialistic. This came after years of listening to Hal Lindsey and the rest. But due to involvement with Israel centric ideology (Messianic Judaism) I began to see things that led me away from all that.

 

[Clare73]

There is no land promise of ancient Canaan remaining to be fulfilled.
The only land promise remaining is of the earth to the redeemed (Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:11; Romans 4:13).

This is a flat contradiction of ALL of the following explicitly stated scriptures:

It's not a flat contradiction of authoritative NT teaching in "ALL of the following explicitly stated Scriptures" below, with which you fail to deal--as distinct from your personal interpretation of Scriptures which God said are his prophetic riddles (dark sayings), not spoken clearly (Numbers 12:8)--and where in authoritative NT teaching, the Church is

the called-out people of God going back to Abraham (Genesis 12:1; Galatians 3:7-8, Galatians 3:16, Galatians 3:29; Romans 4:16, Romans 11:16-17; Ephesians 3:6; 1 Peter 2:9-10),

the body of Christ in the two-in-one enfleshment of the marital union (Ephesians 5:31-32),
that body being the singular vessel (Ephesians 1:22-23, Ephesians 2:11-22, Ephesians 3:6),
the one tree (Romans 11:17-24),
the only vine (Hosea 10:1; John 15:5) and
the one fold (John 10:16),

wherein God demonstrates the wisdom of his counsels, for the instructing of the angels (Ephesians 3:10-11; cf 1 Corinthians 4:9, 1 Corinthians 11:10; 1 Peter 1:12; 1 Timothy 5:21; Hebrews 12:22; Luke 15:7). The Church is

the New Jerusalem, the Holy City, Mount Zion, the holy mountain (Hebrews 12:22),
including the OT saints (Revelation 21:9-12),
the circumcision (Philippians 3:3),
the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16),
the chosen people, royal priesthood, holy nation (1 Peter 2:9),
the seed of Abraham (Romans 4:11; Galatians 3:29),

in whom God's eternal purpose from before the foundations of the world has been to prepare her as a bride, without spot or blemish to present her radiant to the Lamb, his one and only Son, (Ephesians 1:4-5, Ephesians 5:25-32; Revelation 19:7-8, Revelation 21:1-2, Revelation 21:9-14).
All of history and all of time are for this SINGLE purpose of God--to prepare a bride for his Son.

The OT revealed the plan in types and shadows (Genesis 18:18; Exodus 15:17; Psalms 49:9-15, Psalms 48:1-14; Isaiah 2:2-3, Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 24:23, Isaiah 25:6-10, Isaiah 26:1-2, Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 49:6, Isaiah 55:3-5, Isaiah 56:6-8, Isaiah 60:1-22; Isaiah 62:1-5, Isaiah 65:1, Isaiah 65:17-25, Isaiah 66:20-24);
Christ secured the plan on the cross (Ephesians 5:23-25; Titus 2:14), and
the NT reveals the plan in full ( (Romans 16:25-26; Ephesians 1:9-10, Ephesians 3:3-6, Ephesians 3:8-11, Ephesians 5:32; Colossians 1:26-28, Colossians 2:2-3; Revelation 10:7, Revelation 11:15, Revelation 16:17, Revelation 21:6).

So that all those not called to that single purpose (Romans 8:28-30; Ephesians 1:9-11, Ephesians 3:10-11; Philippians 2:13; 2 Timothy 1:9); i.e., all those not included in the bride of the Lamb (aka, the Church, the body of Christ, Mount Zion, the holy mountain, the New Jerusalem, the Holy City, the kingdom of God, the new creation--Ephesians 2:10) are eternally lost outsiders (Romans 11:23; Revelation 22:14-15; cf 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Ephesians 5:5; Galatians 5:19-21),
because they are not part of that eternal plan secured by the sacrifice of the Lamb (Ephesians 1:22-23, Ephesians 5:23-32; Acts 4:12).

It is in the light of the NT we learn that God has only one purpose in human history (Ephesians 1:8-11), and that purpose is his Church, the bride of the Lamb and the body of his Christ (Colossians 1:16-20; Revelation 11:15). That Church is
the goal of all his counsels (Romans 8:30; Romans 9:22-24; cf Exodus 12:36; Deuteronomy 4:37-38; 1 Chronicles 17:12-14; Proverbs 13:22, Proverbs 21:18; Isaiah 43:3-4; Revelation 21:6),
the showcase of his wisdom,
the crown jewel of his new creation (Revelation 21:1; Revelation 21:11, Revelation 21:18-21). It is the true temple (Ephesians 2:19-22) and
the singular residence of his glory (Revelation 21:22-23).

So in the light of the NT, we see that the prophetic types; e.g., the promised land, the kingdom, Mount Zion, the holy mountain, Jerusalem, the Holy City, the bride (Ezekiel 16:32; Isaiah 62:5; Jeremiah 3:6-20), the temple (Ezekiel 40-44; Zechariah 6:12-13), the priesthood, etc.
have their completion in Christ, and in his body, the Church (2 Corinthians 1:20; Matthew 12:28; Luke 17:21-22; Hebrews 12:22; 1 Peter 2:5, 1 Peter 2:9-10),
either in time on earth, in eternity in the new creation, or both; for God's plan of restoration is
the Church in that new creation both of time (2 Corinthians 4:16, 2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15)
and eternity (Revelation 21:1, Revelation 21:4-8),
which is the restoration of the original creation (Genesis 1:27 w/ Colossians 3:10; Ephesians 4:24; Titus 3:5; Genesis 1:28 w/ Matthew 19:28; 1 Corinthians 6:2-3; Genesis 2:24 w/ Matthew 19:8-9; Romans 8:19-23 w/ 2 Peter 3:12-13), not the restoration of Israel.

It is in the light of the NT that we see the marvelous unity, not division, of the divine plan (Ephesians 4:4-6), as well as of the Bible.

 

[ralliann]

I'll take this incrementally.

I completely agree but before get to far down this avenue we should ALL first acknowledge something many Dispensationalists may not know: The entire rest of Christendom does NOT view Israel as eschatologically relevant. There are five main eschatologies: Historic Premillennialism, Amillennialism, Postmillennialism, Idealism, and Dispensational Premillennialism, and only DPism considers Israel or its temple relevant. Everyone else says no to that premise. This view was invented in the mid-1800s by John Darby.

Does something new automatically mean it is wrong? No! That is not my argument. The problem lies in this simple undeniable fact: if Dispensational Premillennialism is correct then all the rest of Christendom is wrong and has been wrong for 20 centuries going all the way back to the fledgling days of the ekklesia in the NT era. Can't be had both ways.

So... getting back to what you've said, if that view of Israel and the separation of Church and Israel is correct then this is also a very different doctrine of the Church than has ever been taught and it is one that leads to the unavoidable conclusion: if they are correct then everyone else in the entire history of the Church has been wrong. Our doctrine of Christ and the Church are wrong and they've always been wrong. John Darby has set us straight.

That's a problem.

I have heard about the fulfillment of the feasts. I think it disturbing that the feasts, have been distinguished into two categories. Those fulfilled and those not fulfilled, as to their seasons, spring and fall. The spring feasts are said to be fulfilled, while the fall feasts are not fulfilled yet. What I find disturbing is the Day of Atonement is a fall feast. Christ has already made atonement for sins, by one sacrifice. This bothers me quite a bit. Would you all consider this a form of denial of the atoning work of Christ? The Passover sacrifice (spring feast) is not a sacrifice for sin.

 

[Biblewriter]

The Dispensationalist's use of Zechariah 12:10 for a future salvation of modern Orthodox Jews outside of the Church falls apart in the New Testament.

Zec 12:10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.


John saw the fulfillment of the piercing at Calvary in the passage below.


Joh 19:31 Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
Joh 19:32 Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him.
Joh 19:33 But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.
Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
Joh 19:35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.
Joh 19:36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "NOT ONE OF HIS BONES SHALL BE BROKEN."
Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."


When was the Spirit poured out in Jerusalem?
Read Acts chapter 2.
On the Day of Pentecost the Spirit was poured out in Jerusalem, and about 3,000 from "all the house of Israel" (Acts 2:36) mourned when they realized they had crucified their Messiah.


Rom 9:27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.


All man-made Bible doctrines are revealed not by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but rather by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.


Why do Dispensationalists try to ignore John 19:37?

.

So which are you denying?
Are you denying that the book of Ezekiel is the word of God?
Or you denying that God always tells the truth?

One or the other of these choices is a NECESSARY conclusion, if what you are saying is true.

 

[Clare73]

There is not even one statement, anywhere in the Bible, that salvation is only available "in the church." Salvation is in Cbrist, not in "the church."

I find the prevailing focus on the destiny of Israel is diminishing the doctrine of Christ.
We need only check our own thinking.
What is it that captures our interest and attention--is it the working out of the excellency of God's plan in his new creation and bride of Christ, or the (supposed) working out of God's plan for a restoration of Israel. Hands down, it's the (supposed) sensational future of Israel. This doctrine captivates our minds to the diminishment of the doctrine of Christ. In about one more generation, we won't even realize that, although theologically we maintain the centrality of the doctrine of Christ, practically; i.e., in terms of our focus, attention, interest, conversation, anticipation, orientation, etc., the doctrine of Christ has become a stepsister to the (false) doctrine of Israel.

But it is the Church, the bride of Christ and the fullness of Christ (Ephesians 1:22-23), that is the center of God's plan (Ephesians 3:10-11), and not a future restoration of Israel.
It is the Church, the new creation of God, that is the fulfillment of the ages (1 Corinthians 10:11; Ephesians 1:22-23) and the goal to which all history has moved (Ephesians 1:9-10), and not some future restoration of Israel apart from the Church.
And it is the Church that is the end of the ages and time (Hebrews 9:26), and not some future age of Israel after the Church.

And finally, it is Israel's destiny to be grafted back into the Church (Romans 11:23), the one olive tree of God's people (Romans 11:16-17, Romans 11:23).
A future of Israel apart from the Church cannot be reconciled to NT authoritative teaching.

 

[BABerean2]

So which are you denying?
Are you denying that the book of Ezekiel is the word of God?
Or you denying that God always tells the truth?

One or the other of these choices is a NECESSARY conclusion, if what you are saying is true.

The above is a strange choice from a man who denied Hebrews 8:11-12 is in the Bible, just a few days ago. Why did you have problems with Hebrews 8:11-12? It is because you were attempting to deny that the New Covenant passage of Jeremiah 31:31-34 has been fulfilled by Christ.

Now you are attempting to deny other Old Testament passages have been fulfilled by Christ.

Anyone who has to use their own personal interpretation of the Old Testament in order to deny what is plainly written in the New Testament, is the person who is in denial.


Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."


.

 

[Biblewriter]

I find the prevailing focus on the destiny of Israel is diminishing the doctrine of Christ.
We need only check our own thinking.
What is it that captures our interest and attention--is it the working out of the excellency of God's plan in his new creation and bride of Christ, or the (supposed) working out of God's plan for a restoration of Israel. Hands down, it's the (supposed) sensational future of Israel. This doctrine captivates our minds to the diminishment of the doctrine of Christ. In about one more generation, we won't even realize that, although theologically we maintain the centrality of the doctrine of Christ, practically; i.e., in terms of our focus, attention, interest, conversation, anticipation, orientation, etc., the doctrine of Christ has become a stepsister to the (false) doctrine of Israel.

But it is the Church, the bride of Christ and the fullness of Christ (Ephesians 1:22-23), that is the center of God's plan (Ephesians 3:10-11), and not a future restoration of Israel.
It is the Church, the new creation of God, that is the fulfillment of the ages (1 Corinthians 10:11; Ephesians 1:22-23) and the goal to which all history has moved (Ephesians 1:9-10), and not some future restoration of Israel apart from the Church.
And it is the Church that is the end of the ages and time (Hebrews 9:26), and not some future age of Israel after the Church.

And finally, it is Israel's destiny to be grafted back into the Church (Romans 11:23), the one olive tree of God's people (Romans 11:16-17, Romans 11:23).
A future of Israel apart from the Church cannot be reconciled to NT authoritative teaching.

What truly diminishes the truth of God is denying what it explicitly says, in plain, clear words. Our God has promised to eventually bring absolutely all of the ancient nation of Israel back to its ancient homeland, and, after purging the rebels from their midst, bring ALL the rest of them to repentance and to true faith in himself. This promise is irrevocable. God will most certainly keep it. And anyone who denies this is denying explicitly stated scripture.

 

[Biblewriter]

The above is a strange choice from a man who denied Hebrews 8:11-12 is in the Bible, just a few days ago. Why did you have problems with Hebrews 8:11-12? It is because you were attempting to deny that the New Covenant passage of Jeremiah 31:31-34 has been fulfilled by Christ.

Now you are attempting to deny other Old Testament passages have been fulfilled by Christ.

Anyone who has to use their own personal interpretation of the Old Testament in order to deny what is plainly written in the New Testament, is the person who is in denial.


Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."


.

It is a blatant lie to even try to pretend that absolutely “all” of “the house of Israel” and of “the house of Judah” have come to know the Lord, “from the least of them to the greatest of them.”

But until THAT has happened, the promise of Jeremiah:31:31-34 and of Hebrews 8:8-12 will not have been fulfilled.

 

[Clare73]

What truly diminishes the truth of God

Non-responsive again. . .to what diminishes the doctrine of Christ.

is denying what it explicitly says, in plain, clear words. Our God has promised to eventually bring absolutely all of the ancient nation of Israel back to its ancient homeland, and, after purging the rebels from their midst, bring ALL the rest of them to repentance and to true faith in himself. This promise is irrevocable. God will most certainly keep it. And anyone who denies this is denying explicitly stated scripture.

Scripture explicitly states, "There is no God."

 

[Biblewriter]

Scripture explicitly states, "There is no God."

You can mock simply believing what God has said. But you cannot change what He said.

 

[Clare73]

You can mock simply believing what God has said. But you cannot change what He said.

Straw man. . .

 

[BABerean2]

It is a blatant lie to even try to pretend that absolutely “all” of “the house of Israel” and of “the house of Judah” have come to know the Lord, “from the least of them to the greatest of them.”

But until THAT has happened, the promise of Jeremiah:31:31-34 and of Hebrews 8:8-12 will not have been fulfilled.

Apparently, you do not understand the meaning of the word "now" in Hebrews 8:6-13.

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.



Apparently, you do not understand the difference between Israel of the flesh, and Israel of the promise. You keep telling us the children of the flesh are the children of God, but Paul says otherwise in the passage below. If you point the finger and accuse others of lying, you might need to look at the three fingers pointing back in your direction.


Rom 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
Rom 9:7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "IN ISAAC YOUR SEED SHALL BE CALLED."
Rom 9:8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.



Apparently, you also do not understand the meaning of the word "remnant".


Rom 9:27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.


.

 

[Dan Perez]

[QUOTE="BABerean

Rom 9:27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.


.[/QUOTE]

And the Greek words WILL BE SAVED /SOZO is in the Greek FUTURE TENSE , Passive Voice and in the Indicative mood , like Rom 11:26 and that has been some 2000 years and holding .

dan p

 

[Clare73]

[QUOTE="BABerean

Rom 9:27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.

And the Greek words WILL BE SAVED /SOZO is in the Greek FUTURE TENSE , Passive Voice and in the Indicative mood , like Rom 11:26 and that has been some 2000 years and holding .

dan p

Is there not a remnant being saved now (Romans 11:1-5)?

 

[BABerean2]

[QUOTE="BABerean

Rom 9:27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.


.

And the Greek words WILL BE SAVED /SOZO is in the Greek FUTURE TENSE , Passive Voice and in the Indicative mood , like Rom 11:26 and that has been some 2000 years and holding .

dan p[/QUOTE]


A modern Orthodox Jew finds the promise of the New Covenant in his Hebrew scriptures:

.