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Problems with NFP

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MikeK

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but that's a bad allegory... do you tell your children to abstain from food and housing until they are married? you do not need sex to survive, if anything it is a luxury and it is completely appropriate that we wait at various stages in life.

No, mostly I tell my children to pick up their toys and stop screaming.

If it's your argument that you don't get why it's difficult for people to go without certain things that they could survive without, I guess the answer is that they just aren't as good a person as you are. I don't get why any able-bodied woman without a career would allow a maid to step foot in her home, but that's me.
 
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colleen

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No, mostly I tell my children to pick up their toys and stop screaming.

If it's your argument that you don't get why it's difficult for people to go without certain things that they could survive without, I guess the answer is that they just aren't as good a person as you are. I don't get why any able-bodied woman without a career would allow a maid to step foot in her home, but that's me.
Personally, I'm not a big maid person myself. But, I also have no idea how big her house is, or if her husband prefers to have a maid, etc. etc. Frankily though, Mike, I expected a little bit more from you. I know this is a touchy issue for you, but personally attacking someone about something that has nothing to with anything in this thread is below you.
 
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2Cosmic2Charlie

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...do you really think so? who would they have to cheat with? it is all men...

Well, in the first place those on duty aren't only ones who cheat and their are lots of available men and women back on the homefront.

And second, are you sure your husband is in the military ?

I mean, you haven't noticed that something like a third of the military is women and that they are only barred from about 10 jobs, all having to do with direct combat ?

On any TDY their are men and women in all areas intermixing with each other.

Honestly, you don't know this ?
 
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Snowbunny

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No, mostly I tell my children to pick up their toys and stop screaming.

If it's your argument that you don't get why it's difficult for people to go without certain things that they could survive without, I guess the answer is that they just aren't as good a person as you are. I don't get why any able-bodied woman without a career would allow a maid to step foot in her home, but that's me.

im sorry i insulted you, i did not mean to
 
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Snowbunny

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Well, in the first place those on duty aren't only ones who cheat and their are lots of available men and women back on the homefront.

And second, are you sure your husband is in the military ?

I mean, you haven't noticed that something like a third of the military is women and that they are only barred from about 10 jobs, all having to do with direct combat ?

On any TDY their are men and women in all areas intermixing with each other.

Honestly, you don't know this ?

si,

my husband is in the military... i stay distant from all of it because i don't believe in it... i thought adultery was a crime in the military... are you certain these are not just old cliches?
 
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2Cosmic2Charlie

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Well, pretty sure.

First, adultery is a crime in the military but it complicated:

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/a/adultery.htm

Second here is a thread from a military chat area with military people on it disucssing this subject. They debate the prevolence of everything about marriage in the military, rate of divorce, rights of girl/boy friends, benefits, etc.

But no one disputes this fact that was state flatly and never challenged:

75% to 80% of all spouses in military marrages cheat.

I think its just excepted knowledge in the army at least.

https://forums.goarmy.com/forums/thread.jspa?threadID=12004&tstart=120&start=15
 
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vle045

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I dated a guy who was a Staff Sargeant in the Marines. He was in the military for 10 years. We dated for about 5 years...

Anyways... his biggest objection to marriage was the fact that too many people cheat and divorce. His basis for that beleif was all the guys that were under him and confided in him. Either they cheated on their spouse or their spouse cheated on them while they were on a Tour of Duty. He said in the 10 years he was in the service, he didn't know one guy whose marriage lasted.

Of course, that is just the guys that he knows. It's not saying that ALL military men (or women) cheat. But it DOES happen. When those guys are off duty - a lot of them party hard. Really really hard.

For those who have spouses in the military - I am not saying that they do.. or will. So don't jump to that conclusion....

Just saying it DOES happen.

My hubby was also in the Marines as Military Police. I haven't heard of any stories of guys getting in trouble for cheating, but I have heard of them getting busted for things relating to alcohol and drug abuse and prostitutes.

Military life is really really hard. I don't think I would be able to handle it myself.
 
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Davidnic

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This was originally posted in the "Married Couples Only" section of Marriage Ministry here on CF, so please excuse the language. Someone suggested there, that I should post my problem here in order to get an answer which is in line with Catholic teaching. So here goes:

We have been married for 15 years and we have used NFP because we are Catholic. We cannot afford any more children and I am not in a fit state to have any more, anyway.

So, we use NFP (natural family planning). This means that when I am fertile we have to abstain from intercourse. Although I keep my legs crossed during this time, my husband uses this period (about 7-10 days) to "jerk off". Not sure how else to describe it. To make things worse, he uses my body when I am asleep to turn himself on more and get more pleasure for himself.

Obviously, because the Catholic Church teaches that masturbation is wrong, I abstain from doing anything to myself.

Does anyone else have this problem? How does it make you feel?

http://christianforums.com/t6708802-anyone-else-got-this-problem.html

Have you talked to a priest about the situation?

For my part I am a husband in a couple that uses NFP and I wait. It is difficult but I do. I do not find it as difficult as some and I guess because I wanted to be a priest and really and honestly was prepared to never have sex.
In what you describe my biggest problem if that if, as you say:

To make things worse, he uses my body when I am asleep to turn himself on more and get more pleasure for himself.

That is a matter of objectification and honestly he should not be doing it. I am not being preachy but the time to abstain is very minor and the spouse should never be used as an object to further sexual gratification. This is against the very heart of the Church teaching on the nature of marriage.

I understand the difficulty but his behavior should not be viewed as necessary. It is not. You need to meet with your priest and also see if you can get your husband to view what he is doing as something that he needs to actively work toward ending.

There are other things a man can do at that time to strengthen the marriage and get rid of that energy.

If he is not one for spiritual reading and such there are many hobbies or activities that burn off energy at that time. And depending on time and such there are things the couple can do together that occupy that time (Talking, walks, joint hobbies).

It is difficult to find the right things that turn the energy of that time into a productive vein...but that is the key to making the whole NFP thing work. If it becomes a time when the relationship is strengthened, or people exercise or enrich their lives more then NFP is working in its full life affirming capacity.

Now...no one should judge your husband. And I am not. But the behavior is not healthy or productive in the eyes of the Church. But getting through this is difficult and for some it is vastly more difficult than others.
 
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MikeK

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Frankily though, Mike, I expected a little bit more from you.

That's a theme lately in my life. If people would stop expecting things of me they wouldn't be let down.

im sorry i insulted you, i did not mean to

You didn't insult me - you noted that you don't understand that everybody doesn't see things the way you do. I replied that not everyone sees things the way I do. There's no need for any appologies, and certainly not attacks have been made.
 
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Catholic Christian

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We have been married for 15 years and we have used NFP because we are Catholic. We cannot afford any more children and I am not in a fit state to have any more, anyway. So, we use NFP (natural family planning). This means that when I am fertile we have to abstain from intercourse. Although I keep my legs crossed during this time, my husband uses this period (about 7-10 days) to "jerk off". Not sure how else to describe it. To make things worse, he uses my body when I am asleep to turn himself on more and get more pleasure for himself. Obviously, because the Catholic Church teaches that masturbation is wrong, I abstain from doing anything to myself. Does anyone else have this problem? How does it make you feel?


Catechism Of The Catholic Church on Masturbation, section 2352:
"..Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action." "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved.."
LINK:
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art6.htm#2351

Catechism Of The Catholic Church on Artificial Contraception, section 2370:
"....every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil"
LINK:
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art6.htm#2369
 
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2Cosmic2Charlie

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Catechism Of The Catholic Church on Masturbation, section 2352:
"..Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action." "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved.."
LINK:
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art6.htm#2351

Catechism Of The Catholic Church on Artificial Contraception, section 2370:
"....every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil"
LINK:
[URL="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art6.htm#2369"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art6.htm#2369[/URL]

Do you have a point or are you just showing off your cut'n'paste skills ?
 
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Catholic Christian

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Do you have a point or are you just showing off your cut'n'paste skills ?
I am a Catholic. A faithful Catholic recognizes that Christ established a Church which teaches in His Name with His authority. I was quoting what the Church teaches regarding the subject in the original post of this thread. Now: Do you have any more insults that are thinly veiled as questions?
 
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vle045

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I am a Catholic. A faithful Catholic recognizes that Christ established a Church which teaches in His Name with His authority. I was quoting what the Church teaches regarding the subject in the original post of this thread. Now: Do you have any more insults that are thinly veiled as questions?
I think that what he was getting at is that you have quoted what the OP already knows without any offer of what to actually do about it.

Like going to the doctor and having him say, "Yup, you have cancer. Have a nice day."

You restated the problem with no offer of solutions.

As for the OP, I really wish I had some advice to offer, but unfortunately, I do not.
 
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Catholic Christian

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I think that what he was getting at is that you have quoted what the OP already knows without any offer of what to actually do about it. Like going to the doctor and having him say, "Yup, you have cancer. Have a nice day." You restated the problem with no offer of solutions. As for the OP, I really wish I had some advice to offer, but unfortunately, I do not.

I not a priest: I'm just a regular Joe. I would be afraid to offer advice, because it might be bad advice. I'm just a nuts-and-bolts kind of guy: If the Church says "don't do", then I don't do...

...at least I try to "don't do" :)

As a man, I deal with problems a certain way. Girls are different, so I could not tell her how to deal with it. I know that ain't much, but I'm just keeping it real.
 
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2Cosmic2Charlie

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I am a Catholic. A faithful Catholic recognizes that Christ established a Church which teaches in His Name with His authority. I was quoting what the Church teaches regarding the subject in the original post of this thread. Now: Do you have any more insults that are thinly veiled as questions?
I just getting warmed up:

Posting copywritted material of any type without comment is, in my opinion and the opinion of many other beyond this forum, to be rather useless.

It is akin to someone asking "what is art" and then someone posting a picture of a furry coffee cup without any explanation. If contains no insight, no context and is open to any interpetation I see fit to apply to it.

So....

If you got some idea what the CCC says as it applies to the subject at hand, say it. Otherwise is will be assumed you are just cutting and pasting basically a random.

And, meaning no disrepect, in the area of thelogy, quoting philosophy of any kind without comment has the added risk that you really don't understand what you're talking about and that you are just a kool-aid drinker.

Sorry, but you should know the score.

Consider this a kindness.

Most would.
 
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2Cosmic2Charlie

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Allow me an example:

I not a priest: I'm just a regular Joe. I would be afraid to offer advice, because it might be bad advice. I'm just a nuts-and-bolts kind of guy: If the Church says "don't do", then I don't do...

...at least I try to "don't do" :)

As a man, I deal with problems a certain way. Girls are different, so I could not tell her how to deal with it. I know that ain't much, but I'm just keeping it real.

THE JUDGMENT OF CONSCIENCE

1777 Moral conscience,48 present at the heart of the person, enjoins him at the appropriate moment to do good and to avoid evil. It also judges particular choices, approving those that are good and denouncing those that are evil.49 It bears witness to the authority of truth in reference to the supreme Good to which the human person is drawn, and it welcomes the commandments. When he listens to his conscience, the prudent man can hear God speaking.
1778 Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed. In all he says and does, man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right. It is by the judgment of his conscience that man perceives and recognizes the prescriptions of the divine law:
Conscience is a law of the mind; yet [Christians] would not grant that it is nothing more; I mean that it was not a dictate, nor conveyed the notion of responsibility, of duty, of a threat and a promise. . . . [Conscience] is a messenger of him, who, both in nature and in grace, speaks to us behind a veil, and teaches and rules us by his representatives. Conscience is the aboriginal Vicar of Christ.50
1779 It is important for every person to be sufficiently present to himself in order to hear and follow the voice of his conscience. This requirement of interiority is all the more necessary as life often distracts us from any reflection, self-examination or introspection:
Return to your conscience, question it. . . . Turn inward, brethren, and in everything you do, see God as your witness.51
1780 The dignity of the human person implies and requires uprightness of moral conscience. Conscience includes the perception of the principles of morality (synderesis); their application in the given circumstances by practical discernment of reasons and goods; and finally judgment about concrete acts yet to be performed or already performed. The truth about the moral good, stated in the law of reason, is recognized practically and concretely by the prudent judgment of conscience. We call that man prudent who chooses in conformity with this judgment.
1781 Conscience enables one to assume responsibility for the acts performed. If man commits evil, the just judgment of conscience can remain within him as the witness to the universal truth of the good, at the same time as the evil of his particular choice. The verdict of the judgment of conscience remains a pledge of hope and mercy. In attesting to the fault committed, it calls to mind the forgiveness that must be asked, the good that must still be practiced, and the virtue that must be constantly cultivated with the grace of God:
We shall . . . reassure our hearts before him whenever our hearts condemn us; for God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.52
1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. "He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters."53
II. THE FORMATION OF CONSCIENCE
1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.
1784 The education of the conscience is a lifelong task. From the earliest years, it awakens the child to the knowledge and practice of the interior law recognized by conscience. Prudent education teaches virtue; it prevents or cures fear, selfishness and pride, resentment arising from guilt, and feelings of complacency, born of human weakness and faults. The education of the conscience guarantees freedom and engenders peace of heart.
1785 In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path,54 we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord's Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.55
III. TO CHOOSE IN ACCORD WITH CONSCIENCE
1786 Faced with a moral choice, conscience can make either a right judgment in accordance with reason and the divine law or, on the contrary, an erroneous judgment that departs from them.
1787 Man is sometimes confronted by situations that make moral judgments less assured and decision difficult. But he must always seriously seek what is right and good and discern the will of God expressed in divine law.
1788 To this purpose, man strives to interpret the data of experience and the signs of the times assisted by the virtue of prudence, by the advice of competent people, and by the help of the Holy Spirit and his gifts.
1789 Some rules apply in every case:
- One may never do evil so that good may result from it;
- the Golden Rule: "Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them."56 - charity always proceeds by way of respect for one's neighbor and his conscience: "Thus sinning against your brethren and wounding their conscience . . . you sin against Christ."57 Therefore "it is right not to . . . do anything that makes your brother stumble."58
 
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2Cosmic2Charlie

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You see, you don't have clue one what I am trying to tell you do you ?

Its just 400 words from the CCC seeming at random.

So.....

Now try this :

Originally Posted by terryobrien80
I not a priest: I'm just a regular Joe. I would be afraid to offer advice, because it might be bad advice. I'm just a nuts-and-bolts kind of guy: If the Church says "don't do", then I don't do...

...at least I try to "don't do" :)

As a man, I deal with problems a certain way. Girls are different, so I could not tell her how to deal with it. I know that ain't much, but I'm just keeping it real.


Yes, terry baby, (can I call you Terry baby ?) but, the CCC states that it is the responsiblity of all Christian people, if fact all people generally, that they must form their own conscience on all matters moral and that it is their conscience that will convict them.

Further, it goes on to state that a conscience needed to be well formed but that being well formed does not imply that it be in complete agreement with the Chruches teaching.

See
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a6.htm#1778

Therefore, I can come to a moral interpetation that is different from yours (or for that matter the chruches) and still be following my consceince and in good moral standing.




See the difference ?
 
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Filia Mariae

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That's because people hide what they don't want others to know about.

As for who they cheat with.. other men, for one, straight or not. Women in places they go, for another.

And I think if you believe people never, ever, ever touch themselves when they're away from their spouse for the majority of a year.. I'm sorry but I really think you're fooling yourself on that one.

I don't have a huge problem with masturbation in a marriage if sex is unavailable for a practical reason. That's just me.

~ Lynn

Okay, but if someone is asking the question in a Catholic forum, they are presumably looking for Catholic advice.
 
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