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Problems with Faith Alone Theology and the Double Imputation Theory.

jacks

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Paul does state the Christian has righteousness apart from law ( rom3:21)

Does that indicate faith alone, or do you make a distinction between law and works?

I think this is a very good point. I believe Paul was talking about empty rituals and Jewish ceremonial laws of the time. As opposed to James or for that matter Matthew when he said ""Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Mathew 7:21 I believe Paul would have agreed with this; that is the Christian behavior is a necessary and inseparable part of Christian faith, but that is not what he is addressing in Romans.

I think it is worth reading all of Romans 3:19-31 to get a better understanding of Paul's view on "law" and "faith".
Here it is below for convenience.
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
 
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stuart lawrence

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Thanks for putting those verses up, they are all underlined in my bible.
Imagine what Pauls readers would have thought. Here he is telling them they have no righteousness/justification of observing the law. They would have wondered if that meant they could live however they liked for they had a righteousness apart from obeying God's laws. Paul of course would have known some might think that. So I love the final verse to correct those under that impression:
Do we then nullify the law by this faith (a righteousness of faith in Christ not observing the law) Not at all, rather we uphold the law.

It would be some message wouldn't it.
Die to a law of righteousness, live by a righteousness of faith in Christ and you will uphold the law/sin shall not be your master (rom6:14)
 
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-57

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Nope. You cannot do that. You can't take a word used twice in a sentence and assign to it two entirely different meanings. Breaks all the rules of grammar. All means all.

Sure I can...It's in reference to the federal headship.

...Back to the rich man in hell. You failed to explain him away.
 
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-57

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Care to present scripture that supports that concept?
 
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-57

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Oh, but you read into the parable the gulp can be closed...really?

Have you ever read John 3:16? It says some will not perish....which means some will perish.
 
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FireDragon76

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I'm not a fan of scholastic theology, but here is a bit of food for thought, from the writings of St. Therese of Lisieux:


This does sound like the imputation of Christ's righteousness to me...

I think to really get the bottom of why Protestants confess justification by faith alone, we have to get beyond these sort of debates about biblical texts and delve into historical theology.

As LoE said, once you adopt a Latin view of salvation as a matter of merit, there are certain issues you have to deal with. Like how do you know you have enough merits to enter heaven? Especially when the loss of salvation looms so heavily? Well, a Protestant says, God gives the merits freely by applying Christ's merits to us. Not because he is blind to sin or sees us as something that we are not, but because he is merciful to sinners.

I would say that from the Lutheran perspective it is not true that salvation is merely forensic- we do not merely have an imputation of external righteousness but also an ontological union with Christ through his human nature. Nonetheless, we tend to take a more juridical approach as the default by talking about justification for pastoral reasons.
 
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FireDragon76

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FireDragon76

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Frankly, I think its a bit problematic for Catholics to accept Byzantine theology in their churches and yet be overly critical towards Lutheran and Reformed theology. I think the JDDF points the way to more fruitful dialog and greater unity.
 
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JohnMartin

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You can claim faith alone is derived from the text, but faith alone does not justify in James 2:24. Hence justification by faith alone is simply not derivable from the scriptures.



Faith turns into vision in heaven, hence there is no faith in heaven, yet those in heaven are justified. The problem remains.


Not so goofy when Paul says a man is saved by hope in Rom 8:24.



Yes the reformed doctrine is an invention not founded in church history.



Good answer. The problems with faith alone theology are innumerable.

The Double Imputation Theory.


Good answer.



The claim that these doctrine are not in the early church is your claim which I am currently not privy to. Lets us say that your claim is true. Do you have access to all of the oral tradition in the church fathers, or some of it, or only a small amount of it, and how would you know? If we only have access to something less than all of oral tradition, then we can at least posit that such doctrines were believed in the early church, which in turn are consistent with those same (or perhaps developed doctrines) found in fathers in later centuries.

In addition, we can posit that the rudiments, or seeds of say the Immaculate conception are found in the scriptures and the church fathers, where they speak highly of Jesus as God, and Mary as the second Eve. These truths and other associated truths can be used to conclude that god has revealed Mary was conceived without sin. For example, as Eve was created without sin, Mary as the second Eve, is fittingly created without sin. Such an argument from fittingness would not of itself prove God had revealed the IC, but it does go some way to show Mary is fittingly entitled the IC.

The other doctrines are more easily proven from the nature of God, heaven and the nature of the moral act in man.

Purgatory is shown below -

Men are punished for sin with temporal punishments within the Mosaic covenant.
Hence God punishes sin with temporal punishment.
If there is insufficient punishment in this life, then temporal punishment continues into the next life.
Such temporal punishment is termed purgatory.

Merit is shown below -

Man has free will.
What is willed freely is will with merit grated to him who wills.
Hence man merits.
When man repents and believes, he does so freely and hence merits eternal life.

Indulgences.

Man can merit.
Christians are in the one body of Christ and therefor act for each other with regard to salvation.
Salvation is in accord with merit as shown above.
Hence Christians can merit for each other with regard to salvation.
Indulgences are then the merits of those in Christ given to others within the body of Christ.

Indulgences are granted by the church through the power of the keys.





What are yo referring to here, the creed of Constantinople compared to Nicea? If so, the church has the power through the keys to change the creed to express the faith. The faith can be expressed in more than one way without error.


Yes God's law does express God's love.

JM
 
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david.d

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I don't have a problem with other people having different views in their faith because I haven't always had the same views I have now, so I'm not attacking anyone's belief. That is my way of saying don't get offended by what I'm about to say The problem I see with that definition of purgatory is we are the body of Christ, who became sin, literally, not by word or symbol or thought or lie, but became sin to be a sacrifice that cleansed all sin. If we are the body of Christ then we have already paid the wages of sin by the faith of Christ. Not by our faith, but by his faith and his righteousness. He was imputed with righteousness from the Father for His faithfulness unto us, the body of Christ. We are therefore justified by faith alone, but it is the faith of Christ and not our faith, not our works, not our righteousness, but Christ alone. So my belief is the closest thing we have to purgatory is living in a body of flesh.
 
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redleghunter

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Given your interest in historical theology. Reference

Marius Victorinus' Commentary on Galatians
 
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now faith

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Forgive me if this has been said already,but it is simple to understand.
Yes faith alone is our salvation.
Gods grace gives us the Freewill choice to accept Christ by faith or walk away.

Ephesians: 2. 8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The gift is the unmerited favor of God,we accept by nothing else but faith not works or magic or any other predestined idea.
Free will constitutes faith to believe or faith not to believe.
 
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Steven Beck

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lastofall

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[for me anyway] that is wherein the ruin lies, that many will add some word or words beyond that which is written, which is where exaggeration and over-estimation abides; instead of learning to not think above that which is written, which ought to be the standard for any professing Christian, that they may cast down any and all imaginations, and any and all things that exalt themselves above the knowledge of God, otherwise it is not possible to bring into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.
 
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Daniel9v9

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Some good questions and thought provoking comments.

Instead of addressing each point individually, I'd say:

1. Faith alone does not mean a mere historical knowledge of Jesus Christ, Christian doctrine or tradition. It's more than a simple acknowledgement that there is one God, for even demons believe, and shudder. Faith is a living faith, for it is being born again in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

2. Man adds nothing to his own salvation. It is God alone that saves, for there is no other name under heaven that saves, but the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. It's impossible to merit salvation, for it is a gift from God, lest anyone should boast.

3. Man cannot prepare himself for salvation, because he is dead in sin and entirely unable to quicken or prepare himself. Likewise, when being born again - who can cause himself to be born? For man this is impossible, but for God it is possible. If we say otherwise, then this becomes Palagianism or Semipalagianism.

3. Good works does not precede justification, but follows. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. In short, we don't create ourselves in God, but we are created in Christ.

4. Good works are commanded by God and we are to do them. We are created in Christ for good works. This is why any faith without good works is dead. Just as a good tree cannot bear bad fruit. But good works are the fruit of the Spirit, that follows only after regeneration. Apart from Christ we can do nothing.
 
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-57

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So, what is it...all are saved or some? You seem to be some what wishy washy.
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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true faith is a faith that works.

those who truly love Christ will follow His commandments.


one would have to spend a lot of time dealing with the errors presented in the "double imputation theory" refutation. i suffice it to say...that's a mighty fine straw-man you built there.
 
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dqhall

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I would not stay in a church where Christ is called a sinner. The Gospel of John is clear about Jesus being the manifestation of God's teachings on earth.

If a man is faithful to his wife, he does not commit adultery or other serious transgression. This faithfulness saves their relationship. Faith is not lawlessness, nor unnecessary or corrupt regulation. Going to Mass or Church Service alone is not proof of faith. God alone judges who is faithful.
 
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