• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Problems with Dan 9 decrees, and dates

samaus123456789

Active Member
Mar 2, 2025
86
11
39
Australia
✟1,552.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The sequence of the prophecy in Daniel 9 is decree goes out to rebuild - 49 years (7 times 7) pass and the city is rebuilt- 434 (62 times 7) years pass messiah is cut off aka the crucifixion. I will not be focused on the 70th 7 here.
Problem is there are 4 different decrees in the bible, and another problem is does year mean a solar year of 365 days or a 360 day year like is used in Genesis, Jubilees, and Revelation because over 483 years there is 7 year difference between those 2 things.

The following is help from chat GPT. I have checked the dates, and they are the same on human written websites
There are FOUR decrees in Scripture that relate to “restoring and rebuilding Jerusalem.”
1. DECREE OF CYRUS — Ezra 1:1–4; 2 Chronicles 36:22–23

Content: Return of exiles; Rebuild the Temple; Restore temple vessels
Does NOT authorize rebuilding the city walls
Historical Date: 538 BC (first year of Cyrus over Babylon)
2. DECREE OF DARIUS I — Ezra 6:1–12
Content: Reaffirms Cyrus’ decree; Orders governors to support Temple rebuilding; Provides funding and protection
Does NOT authorize rebuilding the city
Historical Date: 520/519 BC (second year of Darius)
3. FIRST DECREE OF ARTAXERXES I (Ezra’s commission) — Ezra 7:11–26
Content: Authorizes Ezra to restore the law, priesthood, and judicial authority; Permits more exiles to return; Provides resources for Temple service
Implied civil restoration but NO explicit command to rebuild the walls
Historical Date: 457 BC (seventh year of Artaxerxes I)
4. SECOND DECREE OF ARTAXERXES I (Nehemiah’s commission) — Nehemiah 2:1–8
Content: Explicit authorization to rebuild Jerusalem’s walls and gates; Letters to governors; Timber for walls and gates
This is the ONLY decree that explicitly fulfills “restore and rebuild Jerusalem” (Daniel 9:25)
Historical Date: 445 BC (20th year of Artaxerxes I; sometimes 444 BC depending on reckoning)
SUMMARY TABLE:
Cyrus — Ezra 1; 538 BC — Rebuild Temple, NOT city
Darius — Ezra 6; 520 BC — Enforce Temple rebuilding, NOT city
Artaxerxes (Ezra) — Ezra 7; 457 BC — Religious/civil restoration, partial/implicit
Artaxerxes (Nehemiah) — Neh 2; 445 BC — Rebuild walls, city, FULL restoration
Only the decree in Nehemiah 2 explicitly commands rebuilding Jerusalem itself.

The sources for those dates are
Here is a clean list of the exact sources for every date I gave, with each point on its own line and no blank line breaks, just as you requested:

The dates for the four biblical decrees come from these historical sources:
Cyrus’ decree (538 BC)
— Source: Babylonian Chronicle tablets (Nabonidus Chronicle) which record Cyrus’ capture of Babylon in 539 BC and his accession as king; Greek historians such as Herodotus and Xenophon; Jewish historian Josephus; ancient chronographers like Julius Africanus and Eusebius who date the first year of Cyrus at 538 BC; astronomical dating of Cyrus’ first regnal year using contemporary cuneiform sources.
Darius I’s decree (520/519 BC) — Source: Darius’ own inscriptions (Behistun Inscription) and Babylonian King Lists that date his accession to 522 BC; ancient chronographers (Africanus, Eusebius) who place his second year at 520/519 BC; synchronisms with the Persian regnal year system documented in cuneiform tablets.
Artaxerxes I (Ezra’s mission, 457 BC) — Source: Persian king lists (Herodotus, Ctesias), Ptolemy’s Canon, Elephantine papyri, and ancient chronographers who consistently date the seventh year of Artaxerxes I to 457 BC; widely accepted historical regnal tables that date Artaxerxes I’s reign from 465–424 BC.
Artaxerxes I (Nehemiah’s mission, 445 BC) — Source: Same Persian king lists (Herodotus, Ctesias, Ptolemy’s Canon); the year 20 of Artaxerxes I falls at 445 BC based on fixed astronomical anchor points used in the Persian regnal system; confirmed by Elephantine papyri that document correspondences with Artaxerxes’ regnal years.


In Nehemiah 2-4 the rebuilding the walls takes place in the same year the decree is given 445 BC, and is completed within 52 days Nehemiah 4 says. This means by 445 BC every single part of the city has been rebuilt. Assuming this is when the 49 years end then it means a decree went out 494 BC but none of the 4 decrees are close to that date.

1. The Second Temple was completed on the 3rd day of Adar in the 6th year of Darius I (Ezra 6:15).
Ezra 6:15 — “The temple was finished on the third day of the month Adar, in the sixth year of the reign of King Darius.”
This means: The Second Temple was finished → 3rd day of Adar → Year 6 of Darius.
2. Historical year: The 6th year of Darius = 516 BC.
Darius I began ruling in 522 BC; his first regnal year was 521 BC; therefore his 6th year = 516 BC.
Thus: The Temple was completed in Adar (Feb–Mar) 516 BC.
3. Summary: The Second Temple was rebuilt and completed in 516 BC in the 6th year of Darius I.
4. Compact biblical rebuilding timeline:
536 BC — Temple foundation laid (Ezra 3:8).
Work halts due to opposition (Ezra 4).
520 BC — Work resumes under Haggai and Zechariah in the 2nd year of Darius (Ezra 5).
516 BC — Temple completed (Ezra 6:15).


If the end of the 49 years was 516 BC then it means a decree went out 565 BC to rebuild which does not match anything. Assuming 445 BC is the true date for the decree in Nehemiah 2, and the city is fully rebuilt in the same year there is no decree 49 years earlier that matches. Forget about the crucifixion date 434 years later, and try to reconcile this 49 year timeframe if someone wants. Keep in mind the decree in Ezra is 7th year of Artaxerxes, and the one in Nehemiah is the 20th year therefore internally in the bible alone there are 13 years between those two events so the decree 457 BC (7th year) can not be the one in Daniel 9 as the city is fully rebuilt by 445 BC - not 49 years later 408 BC.
 

samaus123456789

Active Member
Mar 2, 2025
86
11
39
Australia
✟1,552.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It is possible that the city was not properly rebuilt until Nehemiah dedicated the wall which takes place in Nehemiah 12, and chat GPT tells me it is possible that happened 396 BC which was 49 years after 445 BC

Short answer: Yes — it is possible, but only under a non-traditional reconstruction of the chronology.
It is not the standard reading, but it can be argued if Nehemiah 12 describes events many years after the earlier chapters.
1. Standard Chronology (The Common View):

Most scholars hold: Artaxerxes I reigned 465–424 BC; Nehemiah arrived in Jerusalem in 445 BC; Nehemiah’s governorship ended 433 BC; The dedication of the wall happened 445–433 BC.
2. Why an alternative date is possible (the text internally allows it):
Nehemiah 12 contains genealogies extending to Jaddua; Jaddua lived in the time of Alexander the Great (330s BC); This proves Nehemiah 12 includes later material beyond 445 BC.
Therefore the chapter already spans multiple generations.
3. Could the dedication of the wall be later than 445 BC?

Yes, because the dedication in Nehemiah 12 is not dated; It appears long after the wall completion; No internal timestamp links chapter 7 and chapter 12; Thus the dedication could be years or decades later.
4. Could the dedication be as late as 396 BC?
Yes, if Nehemiah lived into the early reign of Artaxerxes II (404–358 BC) or if the dedication narrative was compiled later using Nehemiah’s memoirs plus updated priestly lists.
396 BC is plausible because Jaddua appears in the list; If Jaddua’s era was incorporated, the chapter is clearly updated after Nehemiah’s lifetime.
The only question is whether Nehemiah himself was alive. Nothing in the text says he was not.
5. Strongest argument for a 396 BC dedication:
The presence of Jaddua in Nehemiah 12 shows the chapter includes information from decades later; Once you accept later editing, a 396 BC dedication is textually possible.
6. Strongest argument against a 396 BC dedication:
Nehemiah 12:27–43 uses Nehemiah’s personal style; For him to be alive in 396 BC, he would need to be nearly 90; This is possible but uncommon.
FINAL ANSWER:
Yes, it is possible that the dedication of the wall in Nehemiah 12 occurred in 396 BC; The text does not require 445 BC; Later high priests in the chapter show later material; The only limiting factor is Nehemiah’s age.
 
Upvote 0

samaus123456789

Active Member
Mar 2, 2025
86
11
39
Australia
✟1,552.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Now 445 BC - 483 years to AD times

STEP 1 — Count from 445 BC up to 1 BC: 445 BC → 1 BC gives 445 − 1 = 444 years, so from 445 BC to 1 BC = 444 years.
STEP 2 — There is NO year 0: After 1 BC the next year is AD 1, so we have used 444 of the 483 years.
STEP 3 — Subtract the 444 years already counted: 483 − 444 = 39 years remaining.
STEP 4 — Add the remaining 39 years to AD 1: AD 1 + 39 = AD 40, because AD 1 is year 1 and AD 40 is 39 years later (40 − 1 = 39).
FINAL EQUATION: 445 BC → 1 BC = 444 years; no year 0; 483 − 444 = 39; 1 BC → AD 1 = +1 transition; AD 1 + 39 = AD 40.
FINAL ANSWER: AD 40.

That is using a 365 day years. Over 483 years that is 2415 days difference / 360 = 6.7 years less 40 - 6.7 = 33.3 AD for the crucifixion.
Or if you use the 457 decree, and say the 49 years was not complete until the dedication 408 BC which is fine then 434 years later crucifixion = 27 AD. That is using 365 day years otherwise one has to subtract another 6.7. I think the Nehemiah decree makes more sense. The final 7 was 63-70 AD with the daily sacrifice in the temple being stopped by Eleazar Ben Hanania 66 AD (Josephus). starting the Judean Roman wars ending with the temple being destroyed 70 AD.
 
Upvote 0

samaus123456789

Active Member
Mar 2, 2025
86
11
39
Australia
✟1,552.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
457-49= 408 BC the exact date of the Elephantine papyri that mentions Nehemiah 12:22–23 Johanan the high priest.
.Nehemiah 12 has Levites coming back from Babylon (the decree in Ezra) , and also the walls , and gates being blessed (The Nehemiah 2 decree was about walls) therefore Nehemiah 12 must take place 49 years after one of those decrees. If it was the 444 one then that would be 395 BC which does not match the Elephantine papyri 408 BC date. Assuming 457 is correct then it is using 365 day years, and the crucifixion was 27 AD.
 
Upvote 0

johansen

Well-Known Member
Sep 13, 2023
812
184
37
silverdale
✟74,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Assuming 457 is correct then it is using 365 day years, and the crucifixion was 27 AD.
personally i find the 360 day year to be high strangeness.
as for 27 ad crucifixion, it doesn't match the fairly well known start of john the Baptist's ministry in ad 29
 
Upvote 0

samaus123456789

Active Member
Mar 2, 2025
86
11
39
Australia
✟1,552.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
personally i find the 360 day year to be high strangeness.
as for 27 ad crucifixion, it doesn't match the fairly well known start of john the Baptist's ministry in ad 29
John writing prophecy in Rev 11 says 42 months 1260 days = 360 days a year, 30 day months. Daniel is a prophecy also. But it conflicts with the date of the Elephantine papyri 408 BC which is exactly 49 years after 457 BC. Unless that date is wrong by a few years the crucifixion was 27 AD. It depends which dating method someone thinks is best for the NT whether it is one of the decrees or mention of Roman politicians in the NT, Josephus, and other Roman writers to date things.

Short answer: NO — the crucifixion cannot be AD 27. It is internally and externally impossible. Here is every reason scholars reject AD 27 as a possible date.
❌ 1. Jesus’ ministry has not even started yet in AD 27 The key anchor is: Luke 3:1 — “In the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar…” John the Baptist began preaching. The 15th year of Tiberius is: AD 28/29 (Roman count from AD 14) possibly AD 27/28 (if someone uses a co-regency starting with Augustus in AD 12) Either way: John the Baptist starts in late AD 27 or AD 28. Jesus is baptized after John begins. So even in the earliest possible reading, Jesus’ ministry begins sometime after AD 27, not before. Therefore: ❌ Crucifixion in AD 27 is impossible because Jesus would not have begun His ministry yet.
❌ 2. John’s Gospel requires at least 3 Passovers John lists: Passover #1 — John 2:13 Passover #2 — John 6:4 Passover #3 — John 11:55 (last week) This forces a minimum ministry length of 2.5–3.5 years. So if Jesus is baptized in late AD 27, then the earliest crucifixion could be: Passover of AD 30 (≈ 2.5 years later) or Passover of AD 33 (≈ 3.5 years later) But not AD 27.
❌ 3. Jesus must die under Pontius Pilate (AD 26–36) This one allows AD 27, but only if everything else fit — and it does not. To crucify Jesus in AD 27, you would need: John the Baptist preaching before AD 24 (impossible) Jesus beginning ministry before AD 25 (contradicts Luke 3:1) The ministry lasting less than a year (contradicts John) So while Pilate was ruling in AD 27, nothing else fits.
❌ 4. No Passover Friday aligns with AD 27 Astronomical reconstructions of Jewish lunar Passover dates show: ✖ No Nisan 14/15 falling on a Friday in AD 27. The only Passover Fridays in Pilate’s decade are: ✔ AD 30 (Friday, April 7) ✔ AD 33 (Friday, April 3) These match Gospel requirements: Friday Passover period Pilate in office AD 27 simply does not have the right calendar alignment.
❌ 5. Luke 3:23 — Jesus is “about 30 years old” If Jesus were crucified in AD 27: He would have had to be born around AD -3 to AD 1 He would need to begin ministry around AD 26 But Tiberius’ 15th year (start of John’s preaching) doesn’t occur until AD 28/29 So AD 27 death contradicts: Luke’s dating Jesus’ age John’s timeline
❌ 6. No early Christian source places the crucifixion that early The earliest Christian writers who give chronological hints: Clement (c. AD 96) Ignatius (c. AD 110) Polycarp (c. AD 135) Tertullian Origen Eusebius Place the crucifixion: In the reign of Tiberius During Pilate With a ministry of several years None point to AD 27.
❌ FINAL ANSWER ❌ The crucifixion CANNOT be AD 27 Because: 1️⃣ John’s ministry doesn’t start until AD 27–29 2️⃣ Jesus’ ministry takes at least 2.5–3.5 years 3️⃣ No Passover Friday occurs in AD 27 4️⃣ It contradicts Luke 3:1–23 5️⃣ It contradicts the Gospel of John 6️⃣ It contradicts all early Christian chronology The earliest possible date allowed by all data is: AD 30 The latest possible date is: AD 33 Those are the only two viable years. If you want, I can now give:


Assuming the 457BC decree is the right one then that date is off by 3 years, and so is the Elephantine papyri.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

johansen

Well-Known Member
Sep 13, 2023
812
184
37
silverdale
✟74,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
John’s Gospel requires at least 3 Passovers John lists
it may be just 2 passovers and jesus had a 1 year ministry. from passover to passover.
shortening it to 1 year helps us understand the disciples continuous confusion and lack of faith.

it takes about 3 years to get to really know someone in my experience.
 
Upvote 0

samaus123456789

Active Member
Mar 2, 2025
86
11
39
Australia
✟1,552.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
it may be just 2 passovers and jesus had a 1 year ministry. from passover to passover.
shortening it to 1 year helps us understand the disciples continuous confusion and lack of faith.

it takes about 3 years to get to really know someone in my experience.
I am confident in the NT dates just trying to figure out the Dan 9, 49, and 434 one.

The last chapter of Nehemiah ch 13 mentions the 32nd year of Artaxerxes (433 BC), and ch 2 is the 20th year (445 BC) so assuming all chapters in between those chapters are written between those times then the end of the 49 year cycle in Nehemiah 12 with the wall prayed over, and all the Levites coming back was before 433 BC, and adding 49 years back to that ends up back at 482 BC which is not even close to the 457 decree

30-483-1= 454 BC city is fully rebuilt, -49= 503BC some decree went out.
or 33-483-1 = 451 BC city is fully rebuilt-49= 500 BC some decree went out.
 
Upvote 0