Problem with Election

[98cwitr]

The mother who runs out and saves a child from an oncoming car is not merely "guiding" him/her. You are changing the story. God does guide those who want to be guided. Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and follow. He did not say he is carrying all his sheep and then needs do nothing.

Waaayyy too much so I'd like to take the liberty to hit reset (unless there are some points you want directly addressed) and ask this question:

If our sins are blotted out via the Blood of Jesus as the Bible tells us, how can they still be recorded in the Book of Life?

I can give you scriptures where it says people resist God.

Of course, but we're trying to address the WHY. I invite you to delve into that with me.

Why did Jesus tell us to pray that God's will be done if no one can resist it anyway?

Because we're praying for things that are perpetually evident. Look at the whole prayer: "Lead us not into temptation" Does God ever lead anyone into temptation? NO! James 1:13. God's Will shall be done, no matter what. The elect shall be delivered from evil. His kingdom WILL come. Our trespasses will only be forgiven to the extent we are willing to forgive others.

 

[JLB777]

If our sins are blotted out via the Blood of Jesus as the Bible tells us, how can they still be recorded in the Book of Life?

Our old sins have been forgiven, but now we must confess our sins to be forgiven.


5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 2 Peter 1:5-9


8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:8-9


The conditional "if", tells us we have a choice to have our sins forgiven and be cleansed of all unrighteousness by confessing our sins, or not.



JLB

 

[98cwitr]

Our old sins have been forgiven, but now we must confess our sins to be forgiven.


5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 2 Peter 1:5-9


8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:8-9


The conditional "if", tells us we have a choice to have our sins forgiven and be cleansed of all unrighteousness by confessing our sins, or not.



JLB

Okay...while I don't want to debate your direct point, I will ask how that even is in scope? Assuming a person has confessed and repented of ALL SIN in their ENTIRE earthly life, and WILL BE justified and sanctified before God at the Judgement, how is it, as Dorothy suggests, will there be ANY record of their sin in the Book of Life?

The conditional "if", tells us we have a choice to have our sins forgiven and be cleansed of all unrighteousness by confessing our sins, or not.

The underpinning of that is that they have a desire even to do so. We need to address the underlying nature of man...instead of doing this surface dancing around the real issue.

 

[JLB777]

Okay...while I don't want to debate your direct point, I will ask how that even is in scope? Assuming a person has confessed and repented of ALL SIN in their ENTIRE earthly life, and WILL BE justified and sanctified before God at the Judgement, how is it, as Dorothy suggests, will there be ANY record of their sin in the Book of Life?

Please present the scripture you are referring to about sin being recorded or not recorded in the book of life.


He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5


I know that people who are in the book of Life, can have their name blotted out if they don't overcome, which is to keep the faith.




JLB

 

[JLB777]

The underpinning of that is that they have a desire even to do so. We need to address the underlying nature of man...instead of doing this surface dancing around the real issue.

We need to read what the scripture so plainly says, and not dance around it with an attempt to explain it away.


8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:8-9


The conditional "if", tells us we have a choice to have our sins forgiven and be cleansed of all unrighteousness by confessing our sins, or not.


If you don't want to be forgiven your sins and cleansed of all unrighteous, then that is your choice.


Just disregard the price Jesus paid for your sins to be forgiven, and remain in your sin.


It's your choice.




JLB

 

[98cwitr]

Please present the scripture you are referring to about sin being recorded or not recorded in the book of life.
JLB

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

Maybe the Book of Life only contains names huh?

 

[98cwitr]

We need to read what the scripture so plainly says, and not dance around it with an attempt to explain it away.


8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:8-9


The conditional "if", tells us we have a choice to have our sins forgiven and be cleansed of all unrighteousness by confessing our sins, or not.


If you don't want to be forgiven your sins and cleansed of all unrighteous, then that is your choice.


Just disregard the price Jesus paid for your sins to be forgiven, and remain in your sin.


It's your choice.




JLB

Okay, let's read what the scripture so plainly says then:

1 John 3:8-9 New International Version (NIV)
8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

1 John 5:18 New International Version (NIV)
18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.

Hebrews 10:26 New International Version (NIV)
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

 

[GodsGrace101]

Knowing something absolutely means nothing but what is known can happen. The cause is irrelevant. If my act is co opted by foreknowledge I have no freedom to act otherwise.

Sorry. Can't remember if I've answered this.

If you KNOW I'm going to go shopping today,
Does that mean YOU MADE me go?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Then please show me what they actually meant by using those terms of election and predestination if they really did not mean it.

Sorry for delay.
How many times do you want me to show you?
We've gone through actual verses...that's not enough?
God ELECTED a special people through whom to reveal Himself.
He elected, or CHOSE, which is what elect means, the Hebrew people, Israel, the jews.

God predestined us to be saved In Jesus. He predestined HOW we will be saved, not WHO.

elect
ɪˈlɛkt/
verb

1. 1.
   choose (someone) to hold public office or some other position by voting.
   "he was elected as councillor"
   sinonimi: vote (for), vote in, choose (by ballot), cast one's vote for; Altro
   
2. 2.
   opt for or choose to do something.
   "more people elected to work at home"

adjective

1. 1.
   (of a person) chosen or singled out.
   "one of the century's elect"
   sinonimi: the chosen, the elite, the select, the favoured;

 

[Butch5]

Yes a very diverse group of Calvinists and Arminians and they came to the same conclusion. Even Nazarenes! That's actually strength for my point.

Don't you see the flaw here? This group is wrong when they disagree with you and your theology, but they're correct when they agree? Don't you see that in reality your standard of what is correct is your own beliefs?

[quote[So 60 or so Hebrew and Koine Greek language scholars are wrong but Butch is right.
Got it.[/QUOTE]

The typical, the scholars can't be wrong argument. You believe God created the world, correct? There are over 60 scholars and scientist who believe it evolved. So, 60 scholars and scientist are wrong but redleghunter is right. Got it. Are you going to argue that they right and you are wrong? Of course not. So, you see, just because one is a scholar doesn't necessitate that they are correct. I mean seriously, how could 60 scholars and scientists be wrong about evolution? It's quite easy isn't it? It's because of presuppositions.

However, it's not the 60 are wrong and Butch is right. It's a matter or interpreting the text. Paul is the one who indicates two groups, not me. Paul is the one who uses first and second person pronouns, not me. Paul is the one who writes of the circumcised and the uncircumcised. Paul is the one who writes of Jews and Gentiles.

 

[Butch5]

Nevermind

So, are you not to address the evidence that refutes the reformed doctrine of Election?

 

[Butch5]

Wow! Such a judgmental post without a single shred of data to back it up.

I used to be a Calvinist and I'm aware of what Sproul taught. He was wrong on quite a few issues. There's no reason to post where he was wrong as it would only distract from the op.

 

[Butch5]

Why all the hostility all of sudden? Are we not debating. I did say I am speaking for myself here. No need to get angry.

I'm not being hostile. I'm just trying to get you to address the evidence. Telling me what Calvinists believe doesn't address the evidence against their position. I've put forth sound and logical evidence for the statement I made and none of you guys will address. Instead you just say I disagree. Just because someone disagrees with evidence doesn't mean that evidence is wrong. I asked you to point out where you believe I was wrong. If you think I'm wrong surely you can point it out. When I asked you didn't. That leads me to believe that you really don't can't point out anything wrong but rather that is simply doesn't fit what you want to believe.

 

[Butch5]

Excellent post, great insight!

The doctrine of God's sovereign election is not an arcane item found rarely in obscure passages of Scripture, nor does it require the pursuit of a diligent scholar to uncover it. The doctrine of election appears on virtually every page of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. No section of Scripture sets it forth, however, more definitively and persuasively than Romans 9.

I can't remember where I hear or read this? Anyway, I am paraphrasing here: If one does not to this question when reading & understanding Romans 9. Then they haven't understood it.

Romans 9:14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part?

Paul is already anticipating the objection. So Paul beats them to the punch! By asking the objection question. And then answering it.

Romans 9:By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

The problem is that you're conflating the Reformer's doctrine of Election with the Bible's doctrine of Election. They are two completely different ideas. The Reformers have taken passages from Scripture that address the Biblical doctrine of Election and used them to try to promote their own doctrine of Election. So, while the doctrine of Election is found thought the Bible it isn't the doctrine that the Reformer's claimed it is.

 

[98cwitr]

Sorry. Can't remember if I've answered this.

If you KNOW I'm going to go shopping today,
Does that mean YOU MADE me go?

Missing the other piece of it (if I may be so bold as to interject!): What if he was also your creator, and had the foreknowledge that even prior to creating you, you'd have a love for shopping? What if He was causally the reason you loved shopping and thus going shopping today, because you had been given [by your Creator] a nature that loved shopping?

Doesn't that profoundly change the scenario?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Again, as I have said to countless others, your funny.

Can't look at the scriptures w/o somebody posting them for you.

Well, I'll say one thing, one was right when they said:



Nothing but insults in your last post.

God Bless

Till all are one.

This is, I suppose, easier than dealing with the scriptures presenting information that destroy your position. As hominem or feign offense making one out of nothing. There are those who agree with you but I have to say your response is extremely poor for a man who thinks himself a deacon.

In any case, it would be better for your soul not to jeer and laugh at information you don’t like. The side that does this does not belong to the side Jesus is on. I can give you examples of which jeers and laughs.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Insulting me calling me:

"children in their understanding".

Need I say more?

You are reading a personal reference into the post not there.

"Do not personally attack (insult, belittle, mock, ridicule) other members or groups of members on CF. Address only the content of the post and not the poster."

But asking me if i have amnesia is ok cause that poster agrees with your position, right?

God Bless

Till all are one.

This is really unbelievable. Insult a poster and then end with this. Hard to believe someone can write that and think they’ve been kind.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Missing the other piece of it (if I may be so bold as to interject!): What if he was also your creator, and had the foreknowledge that even prior to creating you, you'd have a love for shopping? What if He was causally the reason you loved shopping and thus going shopping today, because you had been given [by your Creator] a nature that loved shopping?

Doesn't that profoundly change the scenario?

Shopping or a love for such is not a gift of God. if we want to know the real God, we need to restrict ourselves to what the Bible says of him. Imagining whatever leads to error.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Waaayyy too much so I'd like to take the liberty to hit reset (unless there are some points you want directly addressed) and ask this question:

If our sins are blotted out via the Blood of Jesus as the Bible tells us, how can they still be recorded in the Book of Life?

Do you want to disagree with the Bible? I’m not a Biblewriter, just a Bible reader. We shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ to give an answer for the deeds done in the body whether good or bad. Do you need the verse? Now if we have repented of evil deeds, they are forgiven by the blood of the lamb. Those are blotted out. Both are true.

Of course, but we're trying to address the WHY. I invite you to delve into that with me.

We can talk about why people resist God, the times they do.

Because we're praying for things that are perpetually evident. Look at the whole prayer: "Lead us not into temptation" Does God ever lead anyone into temptation? NO! James 1:13. God's Will shall be done, no matter what. The elect shall be delivered from evil. His kingdom WILL come. Our trespasses will only be forgiven to the extent we are willing to forgive others.

You have destroyed you whole position by the last line. If we are not willing to forgive others, His will is not done, his kingdom doesn’t come for us, those elect are not delivered from evil and all because they refuse the will of God by not forgiving others.

As for God not leading us to a place where we are tempted, He allowed Jesus to be tempted and in fact, it says Jesus was led there. God tempting? No. You are correct. Necessary that temptations come according to Jesus? Yes.

 

[DeaconDean]

You are reading a personal reference into the post not there.
But asking me if i have amnesia is ok cause that poster agrees with your position, right?
This is really unbelievable. Insult a poster and then end with this. Hard to believe someone can write that and think they’ve been kind.

Like I said, your funny.

You quote me, then use the phrase "children in their understanding".

Everybody here knows to who you were directing this towards.

Everybody here knows what you meant.

And then you make fun of my signature.

Your funny.

God Bless

Till all are one.