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Oct 21, 2003
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Thank you for the honest and thoughtful response, I really appreciate it. While we may disagree on that particular point, it is respectful disagreement. To your credit, it would seem to compliment the cessation of the apostolic office. Implications and applications of Scripture can be difficult to sift and sort through, I'll confess. Just out of curiosity, have you read any from Augustine on predestination? Anyway I appreciate your apply, and rejoice where I find agreements. God bless you
 
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redleghunter

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Calvinists like to use the term "The mysterious sovereignty of God" to explain why He would seem to send people to hell for no known reason to us, without them having any hope otherwise.
Show me the quote which leads you to this conclusion.

No known reason?

Reasons given by the apostle Paul in Romans 9
 
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redleghunter

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Yet in Ephesians 2 we are all dead in our trespasses, children of wrath and only God can make us alive.

God calls. Man does not whistle for Him to come.
 
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redleghunter

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Rhetoric?
Lol yeah with a heavy dose of assertions.

An assertion is where someone states something as fact presenting absolutely no evidence. An argument is a statement where propositions are made and evidence is presented in support of the proposition.

This thread is a giant assertion burger.
 
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redleghunter

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The choice they had was either agree with God's will or be tossed out of camp. Which would have been death in wilderness.

Not to mention what folks here are peddling as free will is some libertarian ideal.

How much free choice does a man a gunpoint have being told to hand over his wallet. He did not free will his way into that situation.
 
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redleghunter

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I'm glad you are calling for unity. However, what exactly have you refuted on this thread ?

I've seen insults and assertions. I'll wait for substance.
 
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JIMINZ

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.
Some would say he chose to take that way home. Oh. _ _ _ _ !
 
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Neogaia777

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"The big problem I have with election is that it changes the nature of a loving God." by GodsGrace101

Oh but it doesn't, that is only man's thinking and assumption (and egotism and arrogance) based on thinking we know more about real true love than God...

God makes some to go to hell, the real question is "why"...? and I'll give you a clue that it has nothing to do with our choice either, (cause we do not really have choice), but we only have choice because, and based upon what we "don't know"...

I did my best to try and explain these issues here with posts in this thread:

The problems I see with a God who predetermines and predestines all (of everything)...

God Bless!
 
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Bobber

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Well that'd mean that God loves to see hurt, pain, misery, abuse, strife, sin, cruelty, injustice, broken hearts, all the works of the devil! You can add to the list if you wish. Nonsense! Jesus came down and revealed the way and heart of the Father and it surely wasn't any of those things. It seems to me he said,

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls."Matt 11:28
 
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ladodgers6

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Thanks for sharing. My story is, from a very young age to my late teens. My mother took us to the following religions: Mormons, SDA, JW, Pentecostals, Catholicism, Arminianism. There could be more, not sure. Anyway, finally I encountered the Theology of the Reformation. When I first read Luther's commentary on Galatians and heard the Gospel of Christ that Paul preached. I was set free!!!

I praise God for everything He has done for me!

Glory be to God Alone!!!
 
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ladodgers6

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Thank you for sharing. I will check it out, thanks.
 
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jamesbond007

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Election means selection. GOD selects the ones who have demonstrable faith.

So God created Adam, but didn't select him? Why didn't he create someone who will have demonstrable faith and we wouldn't be in this mess?
 
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Probaly the worst verses that people who argue against free will have trouble to explain are
James 4
2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

You don't have because you do not ask , that means if you would ask you would have .
 
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SkyWriting

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The post on your blog here your multiple versions and provide a link to your permanent explanation.
Thanks for letting me know what you are sick of. I would never have known.

Free will is man having choices.
Predestination is God having every moment already scripted in your life.

The two concepts are impossible to reconcile.
God does it, but man cannot accept that His destiny is planned.

One is, man controls his destiny.
Two is, God has scripted all events.
 
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SkyWriting

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The Lord is great because he saves people from hell, not because he sends people there. Sometimes you have to put the book down and think.

Hell is where those who don't believe in God end up.
Putting non-believers in Heaven would be a mean trick.
They'd go insane.
 
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SkyWriting

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They are both fully in effect.
God gives you free will to do as you please
and He already knows what you will choose
and your life is predestined.

Both are 100% in effect. With man, not possible.
With God, it is.
 
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grasping the after wind

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How does it not change God's nature if HE decides who is saved and who is not?

I thought God is an all good God...How does an all-good God send people to hell through no fault of their own?

You will have to explain to me how God's nature can change. AFAIK God is who he is. He said so Himself. It seems to me that What you are trying to express when you say things about Him deciding who is saved and sending people to hell is that you do not believe it is in God's nature to do those things because He is a loving God. You seem to be assuming that your judgment on what constitutes being loving is authoritative so that even if it is God that were to vary from that authoritative model then it would be He that was mistaken about what constitutes loving and not yourself. So, you perhaps have never thought it possible for God to in any way differ in his conception of what is loving from your own conception of what that means. If you were to become convinced that He was different than you had previously thought (which is probably very unlikely) your perception of what His nature was would be altered. If that became the case, it would not be God's nature that changed (God remains as He always was) but your perception of God's nature that changed. Either God is as you have perceived Him to be or God is not as you perceived Him to be. God's nature doesn't change. God is unchangeable. Your perception of him , however, is not immutable.
 
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