Problem with Election

James2018 · Jun 28, 2018

KJV Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

This is copy-paste from E-Sword.
Maybe I should look at the
AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible first edition.
I hope not. I've been using E-Sword.

Are you sure about your translation ?

Butch5 · Jun 28, 2018

James2018 said:
lol, wow, I already need a couple research assistance, this is great !
I know. I have 60 historical authors and 40 research authors, full collections.

I'm not following you.

James2018 · Jun 28, 2018

ladodgers6 said:
The passage is clear for me. God made a Covenant of Redemption with the Son and Holy Spirit. This Plan is to save God's people from sin & death, Satan, and the curse of the Law. So God Elects & gives to the Son whom he will save. The Son willingly signs his death warrants, knowing exactly what he will be facing; and fulfills His Father's will; Christ's last words is, 'It is Finished! Christ secured the Redemption of God's people at the Cross. In Christ we are sanctified, and we are being sanctified by the Holy Spirit. The role of the Holy Spirit is to unit us to Christ through Faith. And all of this was Planned by God before the foundation of the world.

Hope is helps???

God Bless!

great thought . . . can you give me a clear explanation
of the text in discussion ?

James2018 · Jun 28, 2018

Butch5 said:
I'm not following you.

I don't really need any lectures. I got the data base.
Let's assume we've all read the same books
or at lease thought about the same things.

The presupposition is that the scriptures are the final authority.
The presupposition sets the premise.
The premise to the question is scripture text.
I'm asking someone to explain
the underlined words.

ladodgers6 · Jun 28, 2018

James2018 said:
great thought . . . can you give me a clear explanation
of the text in discussion ?

2 Tim. 1:9He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not because of our own works, but by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time eternal.

This is a marvelous affirmation that all aspects of Salvation, including sanctification, are accomplished entirely by grace, not by human merit (Eph 2:8-9). From unconditional election "before the creation of the world" (Eph1:4) to our final glorification in Christ (Ro 8:30). Salvation is entirely by the Grace of God--because of his own purpose. God's decree of redemption is based solely on his own purpose and good pleasure. Elsewhere, this divine purpose is identified as Mercy (Titus 3:5) and Love (Eph 1:4-5); before the beginning of time. An affirmation of the eternal nature of the divine decision to redeem us through Christ (Eph. 1:4;Titus 1:2; Rev. 13:8).

James2018 · Jun 28, 2018

ladodgers6 said:
2 Tim. 1:9He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not because of our own works, but by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time eternal.

This is a marvelous affirmation that all aspects of Salvation, including sanctification, are accomplished entirely by grace, not by human merit (Eph 2:8-9). From unconditional election "before the creation of the world" (Eph1:4) to our final glorification in Christ (Ro 8:30). Salvation is entirely by the Grace of God--because of his own purpose. God's decree of redemption is based solely on his own purpose and good pleasure. Elsewhere, this divine purpose is identified as Mercy (Titus 3:5) and Love (Eph 1:4-5); before the beginning of time. An affirmation of the eternal nature of the divine decision to redeem us through Christ (Eph. 1:4;Titus 1:2; Rev. 13:8).

no way, I'm not talking about the text you're talking about, two different books !

Dorothy Mae · Jun 28, 2018

redleghunter said:
I asked how did they (the Israelites) do with the Law?

Pretty good.."The people served the Lord throughout the lifetime of Joshua and of the elders who outlived him and who had seen all the great things the Lord had done for Israel."

You do realize that you are disagreeing with God Almighty as to the ability of man in regards to being able to do good, right? I mean I did not give you a theological treatise but a direct quote that God is supposed to have said. For you it might be just another Bible verse you ignore or as indicated in your response, you think God was mistaken as to his evaluation of their ability to keep the commandments. This is the position you are taking. God is wrong. Man cannot keep the law.

(Everytime I heard someone say "we cannot keep the commandments" I want to ask them if "do not murder" is really that difficult to keep or "do not steal"...would like to ask if "do not commit adultery" is difficult but that is probably too close to home in our geneartion.)

redleghunter · Jun 28, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
While he's trying to prove that,
Could you explain what kind of a god Calvin believed in?
Look at this:
3.24.8 Calvin's institutes

that there are two species of calling: for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation. Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.

As I've said many times now, I could NEVER worship a God that uses humans as a toy. Just because He IS sovereign, I'm counting on the fact that He loves the humans He created.

God’s love is steadfast and unchanging

God’s love comforts us

God’s love is revealed to us through Jesus Christ

God’s love is poured into us through the Holy Spirit

God’s love compels us to love one another

In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. -

1 John 4:9-11

Give thanks to the God of heaven, for his steadfast love endures forever. - Psalm 136:26

source: 14 Inspiring Bible Verses about God's Love

Sounds like Calvin is expounding on the parable of the sower. Matthew 13

redleghunter · Jun 28, 2018

I shall write Romans 3:20 over the top of this.

Dorothy Mae said:
Pretty good.."The people served the Lord throughout the lifetime of Joshua and of the elders who outlived him and who had seen all the great things the Lord had done for Israel."

You do realize that you are disagreeing with God Almighty as to the ability of man in regards to being able to do good, right? I mean I did not give you a theological treatise but a direct quote that God is supposed to have said. For you it might be just another Bible verse you ignore or as indicated in your response, you think God was mistaken as to his evaluation of their ability to keep the commandments. This is the position you are taking. God is wrong. Man cannot keep the law.

(Everytime I heard someone say "we cannot keep the commandments" I want to ask them if "do not murder" is really that difficult to keep or "do not steal"...would like to ask if "do not commit adultery" is difficult but that is probably too close to home in our geneartion.)

I hope you realize you are invalidating the NT.

Dorothy Mae · Jun 28, 2018

James2018 said:
Anyone feel like helping me understand this verse ?

KJV Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Who saved us? God. No details as to what happened in the who responded to God. No evidence from anyone who walked with God and wrote the Bible that it was God who did not provide salvation (however that works) for some. They all thought and felt sorrow for those who were perishing. None shrugged their shoulders and blamed God for not choosing to same them.

Is the calling ordinary? No, it is to be holy and blameless not merely get out of hell free.
Did we DO anything to receive this? We did not DO any good works to earn this. Did we do nothing? Not at all. We had to believe. As we believe the truth, so we receive it. Believing is not a work.

Does He have a purpose? Yes, we are predestined to be holy and blameless, sons of God. We are not predestined for Heaven although those who are holy and blameless go there.

Who is the party responsible for this? Christ Jesus

When was this planned that Christ should be crucified for us? Before the world began.

No hint that some are chosen for Heaven and some left for Hell no matter what they do.

redleghunter · Jun 28, 2018

Butch5 said:
If you're referring to verse 1 the New King James is probably the most accurate to the Greek text. If you're referring to verses 3-12 any of them. They're the same.

Which Greek text are you using?

Greek Texts
Nestle GNT 1904
Παῦλος ἀπόστολος Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ διὰ θελήματος Θεοῦ τοῖς ἁγίοις τοῖς οὖσιν [ἐν Ἐφέσῳ] καὶ πιστοῖς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ·

Westcott and Hort 1881
ΠΑΥΛΟΣ ἀπόστολος Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ διὰ θελήματος θεοῦ τοῖς ἁγίοις τοῖς οὖσιν ἐν Ἐφέσῳ καὶ πιστοῖς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ·

Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants]
ΠΑΥΛΟΣ ἀπόστολος Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ διὰ θελήματος θεοῦ τοῖς ἁγίοις τοῖς οὖσιν ἐν Ἐφέσῳ καὶ πιστοῖς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ·

RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Παῦλος, ἀπόστολος Ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ διὰ θελήματος θεοῦ, τοῖς ἁγίοις τοῖς οὖσιν ἐν Ἐφέσῳ καὶ πιστοῖς ἐν χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ·

Greek Orthodox Church 1904
Παῦλος, ἀπόστολος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ διὰ θελήματος Θεοῦ, τοῖς ἁγίοις τοῖς οὖσιν ἐν Ἐφέσῳ καὶ πιστοῖς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ·

Tischendorf 8th Edition
Παῦλος ἀπόστολος Χριστός Ἰησοῦς διά θέλημα θεός ὁ ἅγιος ὁ εἰμί ἐν Ἔφεσος καί πιστός ἐν Χριστός Ἰησοῦς

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
Παῦλος, ἀπόστολος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ διὰ θελήματος Θεοῦ, τοῖς ἁγίοις τοῖς οὖσιν ἐν Ἐφέσῳ καὶ πιστοῖς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ·

Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
Παῦλος ἀπόστολος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ διὰ θελήματος θεοῦ τοῖς ἁγίοις τοῖς οὖσιν ἐν Ἐφέσῳ καὶ πιστοῖς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ

redleghunter · Jun 28, 2018

James2018 said:
Anyone feel like helping me understand this verse ?

KJV Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Sort answer? It is ironclad evidence God is Sovereign in His own plan of salvation.

Dorothy Mae · Jun 28, 2018

redleghunter said:
I shall write Romans 3:20 over the top of this.

I hope you realize you are invalidating the NT.

Not at all. I am invalidating the doctrines of Calvin. What you do is see the NT through the glasses of Calvin and reject the verses that do not fit. I reject none of it. But it is not simple. It is complex. I can give you a ton of NT verses that invalidate Calvinism. What do you do with "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" for example. I know what to do with it. The Calvinist has to blot it out. Or "many will fall away from the faith and betray many" which is clearly against Calvinism. There are a lot more.

THe problem is that Calvinism offers glasses to a man so he can feel secure in going to Heaven at the cost of attributing evil to the character of God. There are several fancy footwork "God chooses men for Heaven not none for hell" or "God ordains all that men do but we have free will but really don't" papers that the Calvinists are comforted with.

Dorothy Mae · Jun 28, 2018

redleghunter said:
Sort answer? It is ironclad evidence God is Sovereign in His own plan of salvation.

HIs plan? Sovereign and is now set in stone.
Who participates? Depends upon our own choices according to Jesus.

That God is sovereign does not mean He is a tyrant. There will be in the end two kinds of men. Those who said to God "thy will be done" and those to whom God finally says "thy will be done."

Radagast · Jun 28, 2018

redleghunter said:
Which Greek text are you using?

Greek Texts
Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants]
ΠΑΥΛΟΣ ἀπόστολος Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ διὰ θελήματος θεοῦ τοῖς ἁγίοις τοῖς οὖσιν ἐν Ἐφέσῳ καὶ πιστοῖς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ·

RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Παῦλος, ἀπόστολος Ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ διὰ θελήματος θεοῦ, τοῖς ἁγίοις τοῖς οὖσιν ἐν Ἐφέσῳ καὶ πιστοῖς ἐν χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ·

So some manuscripts say "Jesus Christ" and some say "Christ Jesus."

What's your point, exactly?

redleghunter · Jun 28, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
Not at all. I am invalidating the doctrines of Calvin. What you do is see the NT through the glasses of Calvin and reject the verses that do not fit. I reject none of it. But it is not simple. It is complex. I can give you a ton of NT verses that invalidate Calvinism. What do you do with "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" for example. I know what to do with it. The Calvinist has to blot it out. Or "many will fall away from the faith and betray many" which is clearly against Calvinism. There are a lot more.

THe problem is that Calvinism offers glasses to a man so he can feel secure in going to Heaven at the cost of attributing evil to the character of God. There are several fancy footwork "God chooses men for Heaven not none for hell" or "God ordains all that men do but we have free will but really don't" papers that the Calvinists are comforted with.

Actually your beef is with the apostle Paul who wrote:

Romans 3: NASB
19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Dorothy Mae · Jun 28, 2018

James2018 said:
The only explanation I give myself is that election
and free will are both in the scripture.

The mistake is made in thinking that because God has planned salvation for man, he has preselected those men. The idea that God has planned a destination for the ship but not controlling who gets on board is not considered but it is all through scripture. "The eyes of the Lord search to and fro throughout the earth that they might find the one whose heart is completely his..." If election as the Calvinist understands it were true, God would not be searching but making someone whose heart is completely his. He would never have to call anyone as call requires the party answer. He would simply maniplate. God calling makes no sense in the doctrine of election as the Calvinist understands it. Or it is all a big cruel game where we think we are called but it is not so.

I think at a certain point, every time,
with the questions beyond academic theology,
there are no understandable answers.

Is that ok to think that way ?

A man can be saved and think like a Calvinist but he will never have answers but he can never come to know God. God will not reveal any truth to the man who shows himself comfortable with attributing evil to God. Those who are "OK with God predeterimining who goes to HEaven and hell" will never have God explain Himself to them. If a man wants to understand questions beyond academic theology, he will have to ask God Himself to explain Himself. But God will not unless that man thoroughly is convinced that God is morally good all the time to all without exception. I know the reason why but this is sufficiient.

So it is OK to be satisfied with stayig in ignorance concerning the ways of God? It is OK but it is sad. One is content with milk and propably thinks everyone else is only drinking milk too.

For anyone intereted, I know God and can explain many things those who do not cannot. But only the things that have interested me and I have asked God about...not everything these is to know by any means. I can honestly boast in this, that I understand and know God. It is something anyone who wants to know God can do. He does not have favourites. He reveals Himself to those who really long to know Him and are willing to jettisone any theology that He does not agree with.

redleghunter · Jun 28, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
HIs plan? Sovereign and is now set in stone.
Who participates? Depends upon our own choices according to Jesus.

That God is sovereign does not mean He is a tyrant. There will be in the end two kinds of men. Those who said to God "thy will be done" and those to whom God finally says "thy will be done."

Keep setting up that straw man and knocking it down.

Dorothy Mae · Jun 28, 2018

redleghunter said:
Actually your beef is with the apostle Paul who wrote:

Romans 3: NASB
19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Your response is kind of odd. No one said, not even God, that the people are justified by the workd of the law. No one said this. Why do you bring up a scripture that is totally unrelated to the subject? (Strawman argument)

This cannot possible mean that before the law there was no knowledge of sin. Do you see that? The law came with Moses. Do you think no one knew about sin before that day? And I did not say that this is not true. I said God said that the law he was giving them that day was not too hard for them. You are disagreeing with God Almighty. Don't you want to instead try to understand the matter?

redleghunter · Jun 28, 2018

Radagast said:
So some manuscripts say "Jesus Christ" and some say "Christ Jesus."

What's your point, exactly?

I was responding to @Butch who seems to think Paul is addressing two different audiences in Ephesians 1:1. One who are saints and one who are faithful in Christ.

I'm assuming the saints are Jews and the others are Gentiles but trying to figure out how he came to the conclusion in the first place as he keeps telling us it's all in the Greek.

So I gave him a sampling of Greek texts to choose from to make an informative response.

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