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Sure pronouns are used, that how language works. When you have have, us and you, you have two different groups. That's what does in Ephesians 1
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Thanks for sharing I will check into it. But isn't the Law & Gospel preached to pronouns, anyway? I have no problem with this.
Because Luther said that the Gospel is offered to pronouns (You, Me, etc.)
No, he didn't. I asked you is the Greek text has priority over the translation. It's a simple yes or no question. If it does then the English translations are subservient to the original language.Because he did.
I will just quote Scripture: 1 Cor. 2:14The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Though His death.Thanks for sharing this. How did Christ 'REDEEM' mankind?
Hi Dorothy. Quite a few posters, yours truly as well, laid out dissertations based on Holy Scriptures earlier in this thread. Some of them, like me, repeated them when asked for. It was around the time where you were answering those posts with insulting remarks and straw men about Calvinists and changing the subject to 16th century blood letting. As a concerned brother in Christ I think you poisoned well back then.DD and AW, you completely misunderstand me and I notice that you refuse to deal with the scriptures that show God made choices that clearly indicate that he was looking for information in time. You attack me instead of dealing with these scriptures. Too bad because this is how adults learn. (Not an insult but stating a fact...this is how ALL adults learn.) One exchanges information and views with other adults. This is how I have also learned a lot on discussion sites, by considering those whose opinions are different than mine. But OK. We can move on. I will leave you two alone. I can only say you completely mistake my posts and I was at a loss as to where you saw the insult until you explained it DD and I thank you for doing so. I did not think saying that matters of understanding God is for adults is a personal insult. I just think I was saying an obvious truth.
AW, you are now on ignore so we can both move on. The more lofty the name, the less the poster lives up to it is my experience. AW, adieu.
I think we are not on the same page? I have been out of it. If you wouldn't mind? Ask me your question. Please be specific so that I do not caricature what you have asked?
Thanks in advance!
God Bless!
Sure pronouns are used, that how language works. When you have have, us and you, you have two different groups. That's what does in Ephesians 1
What does that mean? That you understand a passage a certain way doesn't mean you understand it correctly. In that passage what is Paul addressing? What's the context?
You see, to say, 'I'll just quote Scripture' really means, I'm going to tell you what I think the passage means. However, there is at least a 50% chance that you're incorrect.
Though His death.
That is a sovereign action of God. What happens during this call? Is it general or effectual?
Our Great God is the uncreated Creator. The Holy Scriptures reveal His immutable will and purpose.Is everything God does sovereign to you? Is there anything He does that is not sovereign? I was wondering what is the difference for you or if there is one.
The parable of the sower (Matthew 13) is instructive in this matter. There are several soils receiving the same seed and only one takes root and produces. One might say only the elect soil received the seed.
Some might see that as being unfair.
Only the good soil produced.But if one said that one would be ignoring what Jesus actually said. He talked about the plants that came up. Cannot be a plant if there is no seed.
Ok, noticed you did not address the above.Of course God would not blame Himself. However, our fallen state does prevent us from obeying God's Holy Law. Again, Romans 3 comes to mind refuting your claim. So does every reference to the bondage of sin leading to death (Romans 6).
We are in legal bondage. Meaning we are accountable to God's Holy Law under the sentence of condemnation:
What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
[...]
Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; (Romans 3:9–10, 19).
We are under the bondage of love of self and darkness.
That is not what Paul meant. That is what you are reading into it.
That scripture does not say what you claim. The quote is from the OT and it refers to the Jews not being better. Do you know about the verses that call some men "righteous?" They are there. Now what???
This is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. (John 3:19–20)
We are in bondage hating the supremacy (read sovereignty) of God:
For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (Romans 8:6-8)
And of course the bondage of spiritual death:
You were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience — among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. (Ephesians 2:1–3)
That is a lot to overcome on our own power and according to our own human will.
As children of wrath who love the dark, what do you think happens when the seed of the Gospel falls on such soil. See Matthew 13 again.
Yet God is merciful:
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:4-7)
I know God loves His Creation. However, if everyone was "effectually" drawn then all would be universally saved. You don't need to assume, as the apostle gives us keen insight on this in Ephesians 1:
Ephesians 1: NASB
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly placesin Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
His Will, His Purpose, for His Glory alone.
See bolded above in quote. The gospel of your salvation is mentioned for those who were predestined according to His purpose.Salvation is not mentioned here. We are chosen to be holy and blameless not chosen for Heaven. Salvation is not in the matter.
The Scriptures say He makes us alive.
Therefore your view keeps us all in bondage as pointed out earlier. You would have to substantiate here how a person without God's Holy Spirit can claim they are "good enough" to be able to see past the darkness while being spiritually dead to respond to the Gospel. It would be as if Lazarus had something to do with Jesus raising him.
How did that work out for Israel? Not so well as the remainder of the OT shows. And of course you should know this "theology" as it is painfully obvious from Holy Scriptures.Yes, I know of this theology. There is a problem when one considers how God sees the matter though:
Deuteronomy 30:11 "Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach." God did not think the law He gave too hard for them. I take his viewpoint.
Seems pretty clear:That is not what Paul meant. That is what you are reading into it.
That scripture does not say what you claim. The quote is from the OT and it refers to the Jews not being better. Do you know about the verses that call some men "righteous?" They are there. Now what???
Then you should be able to show me where I am wrong...from Holy Scriptures of course.That verse does not say that at all. There are men and women who never hated the sovereignty of God from childhood.
Seems you have seen this before, but for the benefit of others....Well, if we set our minds on things of the spirit that is different. But no one claims it is all on our own but neither does God promise to do it all.
Huh?Well, he does not do it all and does not promise to do it all. Acknowledging his part is not saying he did it all.
Already explained the soils passage.Not according to Jesus. He said some receive the word and faith grows but is lost for the reason he suggested.
Who says and who can judge the Almighty? He is clear He shows mercy on whom he pleases and hardens who He pleases. Just leave it at that without passing judgment on Almighty God.If He chooses some for Heaven and some for Hell, that is an terrible unjustice and more shame than anything else. .
Dead in trespasses means something. Dead men receive nothing. Please tell me how much Lazarus was involved in his rising from the dead?For all who want it. If a man receives the word and faith grows but the pleaseures of this life or its trouble cause him to abandon the faith, then that stands. God does not rescue the man from his own choices. When the 70 walked away from the Saviour, He did not drag them back.
Jesus uses birth for a reason.....He established that as the beginning. Anything after a beginning is not the beginning.Well, this does not mean that unless one is born of the spirit first he cannot be born of the spirit
He explained it to them. See Matthew 13 again where he explains the parable in no uncertain terms.Sounds like Jesus is clearly telling them they DO NOT KNOW how it works. This is the mistake you make in your postion. You think you know.
Only one soil produced. Jesus explains the parable to his disciples. See Matthew 13I never said man is sovereign. But again, the Bible gives NO DETAILS beyond the parable of the different soils. I do not claim to know more than what Jesus said. He did not say the sower of the seeds was manipulating the plants. I know this is scary. But this is the only view whereby God is just and merciful.l
Then believe Jesus in John 10 when He explains how He gets His sheep.Quite the contrary. I am limiting my position to what Jesus said directly regarding the word of God and the faith that grows and what happens in men and why.
It is what it says. Why read something into the text. If I am out of context show me....Using the Holy Scriptures of course.Does all of the above come out of all men all the time? Does this describe the child as well as the adults....all of them?
Why do I ask this? It is because Jesus was saying in this verse that what a man EATS does not defile him but what his heart brings him to do. You are making something different out of it than what Jesus said by taking it out of context.
Yeah he gave you the Greek.No, he didn't. I asked you is the Greek text has priority over the translation. It's a simple yes or no question. If it does then the English translations are subservient to the original language.
You are splitting hairs, here. If this is your refutation against Election, I beg to differ. Please expand this further, and explain how this refutes election?Sure! Verses 3-12 are what is known as a Hebraism. It's a praise of God. In this section Paul is praising God for what He's done for the Jewish people. Take note that in verses 3-12 Paul uses first person plural pronouns, us, we, and our. Then in verse 13 he switches to second person plural pronouns, you and your. What he's done here is distinguish two different groups, us and you. He includes himself in the "us" group. The "us" group is the Jews and the "you" group is his Gentile readers. This can be seen from verse 12 among other things. In verse 12 Paul says, 'we who before hoped in the Christ'. It was the Jews who had hoped in the Christ, not the Gentiles. If you notice Paul opens the letter this way.
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: (Eph. 1:1 KJV)
Notice again, two groups. The saints and the faithful in Jesus Christ. He goes on later in the letter to identify the saints. In chapter 2 Paul draws a distinction between the Jews and the Gentiles.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (Eph. 2:11-19 KJV)
Notice that he said, "you being Gentiles". The "You group" is the Gentiles. He goes on to say that the "you" group was far off. The Jews were nigh. Then he says that in Christ they, the "you" group, are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints. The contrast was between Jew and Gentile. The Gentiles were the "you" group and have now become fellow citizens with the saints, the Jews.
Part 1:
Our Great God is the uncreated Creator. The Holy Scriptures reveal His immutable will and purpose.
Consider what thou owest to his immutability. Though thou hast changed a thousand times, he has not changed once; though thou hast shifted thy intentions, and thy will, yet he has not once swerved from his eternal purpose, but still has held thee fast. - Charles Spurgeon [1] The immutability of God means that God is unchanging. More specifically, "God is unchanging in his character, will, and covenant promises. Louis Berkhof's systematic theology text (a Reformed classic) defines God's immutability as 'that perfection of God by which He does not change in His being, perfections, purposes, or promises.' The Westminster Shorter Catechism says, 'God is a spirit, whose being, wisdom power, holiness, justice, goodness, and truth are infinite, eternal, and unchangeable." Those things do not change. A number of Scriptures attest to this idea (e.g. Num. 23:19; 1 Sam. 15:29; Ps. 102:26; Mal. 3:6; 2 Tim. 2:13; Heb. 6:17-18; Jam. 1:17)." [2]
On the Sovereignty of God:
The Sovereignty of God is the biblical teaching that all things are under God's rule and control, and that nothing happens without His direction or permission. God works not just some things but all things according to the counsel of His own will (see Eph. 1:11). His purposes are all-inclusive and never thwarted (see Isa. 46:11); nothing takes Him by surprise. The sovereignty of God is not merely that God has the power and right to govern all things, but that He does so, always and without exception. In other words, God is not merely sovereign de jure (in principle), but sovereign de facto (in practice).
Only the good soil produced.
23“And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.” (Matthew 13:23)
This is the man who has ears which hear and eyes which see. This what is called effectual call. God opens our eyes and ears to the Gospel as we are dead in our trespasses, sons of disobedience and children of wrath, yet He makes us alive in Him while we are yet sinners. This is His Sovereign act.
If it is a human reaction then you would have to show, from Scriptures, that as children of wrath, dead in our sins that somehow we have 'enough goodness' to receive His Holy Word.
Ok, noticed you did not address the above.
I think you may be in too many conversations.Okay, now that we got straighten out. What's your point?
I am speaking for myself here. This passage is crystal clear to me. Remember that I asked you about God's Plan of Redemption? And you responded by saying, "yes". Why does God have a Plan of Redemption?
In Reformed Theology we hold to the Covenant of Redemption.
What Is the Covenant of Redemption?
from R.C. Sproul Mar 05, 2018 Category: Articles
A persistent tradition claims that upon being mocked by a skeptic with regard to his doctrine of creation, Saint Augustine was cynically asked, “What was God doing before He created the world? Augustine’s alleged reply was: “Creating hell for curious souls.”
The reply was, of course, tongue-in-cheek. The Bible doesn’t speak of such a special work of divine creation before creation itself. But Augustine’s bon mot had a serious point that warned against idle speculation of God’s activity in eternity.
However, quite apart from speculation, the Bible has much to say about God’s activity “before” the world was made. The Bible speaks often of God’s eternal counsel, of His plan of salvation and the like. It is a matter of theological urgency that Christians not think of God as a ruler who ad libs His dominion of the universe. God does not “make it up as He goes along.” Nor must He be viewed as a bumbling administrator who is so inept in His planning that His blueprint for redemption must be endlessly subject to revision according to the actions of men. The God of Scripture has no “plan b” or “plan c.” His “plan a” is from everlasting to everlasting. It is both perfect and unchangeable as it rests on God’s eternal character, which is among other things, holy, omniscient, and immutable. God’s eternal plan is not revised because of moral imperfections within it that must be purified. His plan was not corrected or amended because He gained new knowledge that He lacked at the beginning. God’s plan never changes because He never changes and because perfection admits to no degrees and cannot be improved upon.
The covenant of redemption is intimately concerned with God’s eternal plan. It is called a “covenant” inasmuch as the plan involves two or more parties. This is not a covenant between God and humans. It is a covenant among the persons of the Godhead, specifically between the Father and the Son. God did not become triune at creation or at the Incarnation. His triunity is as eternal as His being. He is one in essence and three in person from all eternity.
The covenant of redemption is a corollary to the doctrine of the Trinity. Like the word trinity, the Bible nowhere explicitly mentions it. The word trinity does not appear in the Bible, but the concept of the Trinity is affirmed throughout Scripture. Likewise, the phrase “covenant of redemption” does not occur explicitly in Scripture but the concept is heralded throughout.
Central to the message of Jesus is the declaration that He was sent into the world by the Father. His mission was not given to Him at His baptism or in the manger. He had it before His incarnation.
In the great “Kenotic Hymn” of Philippians 2, we get a glimpse of this: “Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father” (vv. 5–11 NKJV).
This passage reveals many things. It speaks of the willingness of the Son to undertake a mission of redemption at the behest of the Father. That Jesus was about doing the will of the Father is testified throughout His life. As a young boy in the temple He reminded His earthly parents that He must be about His Father’s business. His meat and drink was to do the will of His Father. It was zeal for His Father’s house that consumed Him. Repeatedly He declared that He spoke not on His own authority but on the authority of the One who sent Him.
Jesus is the primary missionary. As the word suggests, a missionary is one who is “sent.” The eternal Word did not decide on His own to come to this planet for its redemption. He was sent here. In the plan of salvation the Son comes to do the Father’s bidding.
The point of the covenant of redemption is that the Son comes willingly. He is not coerced by the Father to relinquish His glory and be subjected to humiliation. Rather, He willingly “made Himself of no reputation.” The Father did not strip the Son of His eternal glory but the Son agreed to lay it aside temporarily for the sake of our salvation.
Listen to Jesus as He prays to the Father at the end of His ministry: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You; And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was” (John 17:1–5 NKJV). The covenant of redemption was a transaction that involved both obligation and reward. The Son entered into a sacred agreement with the Father. He submitted Himself to the obligations of that covenantal agreement. An obligation was likewise assumed by the Father — to give His Son a reward for doing the work of redemption.
In his systematic theology, Charles Hodge lists eight promises the Father gave to the Son in this pact made in eternity. Briefly they are: that God would form a purified Church for His Son; that the Son would receive the Spirit without measure; that He would be ever-present to support Him; that He would deliver Him from death and exalt Him to His right hand; that He would have the Holy Spirit to send to whom He willed; that all the Father gave to Him would come to Him and none of these be lost; that multitudes would partake of His redemption and His messianic kingdom; that He would see the travail of His soul and be satisfied.
Because God honored the eternal covenant of redemption, Christ became the heir of His Father’s promises. Because this covenant was never violated, we reap its benefits as heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ.
Hope this helps?
God Bless!
Yeah he gave you the Greek.
Considering over 60 Greek scholars translated the verse, yes I'm confident in the Greek and translation.He did. However, you still haven't answered my question. Does the Greek test have carry more weight than the translation? It's a simple yes or no question. Why won't you answer it?
You are splitting hairs, here. If this is your refutation against Election, I beg to differ. Please expand this further, and explain how this refutes election?
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