Problem with Election

redleghunter · Jun 25, 2018

JLB777 said:
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

His works or God's works of righteousness. There's a huge difference.

You quoted James 2:21.

Yet James 2:23 says "and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God."

I'm assuming he did not want to confuse the reader or hearer that somehow Abraham was justified by works in the sense the apostle Paul speaks of we are justified by faith apart from works. Lest we boast of course.

redleghunter · Jun 25, 2018

JLB777 said:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world

He chose those in Christ.

How does a person come to be "in Christ"?

In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, Ephesians 1:11-13

JLB

I believe you are conflating God's sovereign election with His method of sealing the elect for eternal life.

Anto9us · Jun 25, 2018

Paul of Eugene OR said:
But what if they, of their own free will, decide to continue here?

Oh, well, then that's all right, Paul!

JLB777 · Jun 25, 2018

98cwitr said:
Completely twisting my words. I'm not promoting universalism, and of course people must have faith in the Gospel. What I am saying is that God is the giver of faith, it's not self-manifested.

Ok.

Do you also understand the principle of faith?

How faith is activated, or “made alive” able to function, like a body with a spirit?

Just because faith comes to you and you have faith from God as a gift, doesn’t mean you will be saved my friend.

You must obey the Gospel to be saved.

Faith without the action or work of obedience is dead.

JLB

JLB777 · Jun 25, 2018

redleghunter said:
Not tracking as we are spiritually dead and can't respond unless made alive in the first place.

Not so.

The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

Shall I break down the Gospel and the process ?

redleghunter · Jun 25, 2018

98cwitr said:
Completely twisting my words. I'm not promoting universalism, and of course people must have faith in the Gospel. What I am saying is that God is the giver of faith, it's not self-manifested.

I understood your reference. The Father gives the sheep to Jesus and He does not lose them and they never perish. The Father does not give the Son the goats.

JLB777 · Jun 25, 2018

redleghunter said:
What are you defining as "obey?"

This?

Romans 10: NASB
9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

Yes. Confessing Jesus as Lord.

That is the corresponding action of obedience to the command of the Gospel, which is repent.

Repent means to turn to God in submission to His rule and authority as Lord.

JLB

redleghunter · Jun 25, 2018

sdowney717 said:
No, being born again is not salvation, it is part of the process, there still remains that you must believe. Being born again first makes that possible as that is the Holy Spirit's work making you clean with a new heart. This is a being sanctified, cleansing process taking place in your heart which prepares you to make the good confession in Christ.

Indeed...Making us the good soil which will take root and burn up like the rocky soil.

Matthew 13: NASB
“And others fell on the good soil and yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty. 9“He who has ears, let him hear.”

Begs the question...how did the good soil get that way.

JLB777 · Jun 25, 2018

redleghunter said:
I believe you are conflating God's sovereign election with His method of sealing the elect for eternal life.

The seal of authenticity, for a true believer is the Holy Spirit.

This word “seal” is what a king puts on a decree or document indicating it is authentic, and from him.

His signet ring would be pressed into some wax creating this seal.

JLB

redleghunter · Jun 25, 2018

JLB777 said:
Yes. Confessing Jesus as Lord.

That is the corresponding action of obedience to the command of the Gospel, which is repent.

Repent means to turn to God in submission to His rule and authority as Lord.

JLB

Getting goosebumps here. Can't disagree at all brother. I think our disagreement is how we get to have this obedient heart from a spiritually dead state. I think we Christians who Love the Lord and follow Him faithfully can have this disagreement as long as we know all is for the Glory of God.

redleghunter · Jun 25, 2018

JLB777 said:
The seal of authenticity, for a true believer is the Holy Spirit.

This word “seal” is what a king puts on a decree or document indicating it is authentic, and from him.

His signet ring would be pressed into some wax creating this seal.

JLB

Again don't disagree. But looking at Ephesians 1 there's loads of talk of being chosen by God, according to His will and purpose for His Glory alone before getting to how we become in Christ and being sealed for the inheritance. Meaning Paul is truly expounding on how we become God's adopted children from the perspective of God not man. Ephesians 1 is tantamount to taking the first step to understand God's Sovereignty.

Now, let's be realistic. Do you think the souls who heard the gospel and responded by proclaiming Christ in word and in deed (by being baptized) in Acts 2 and 3 argued amongst themselves about the meaning of predestination and election? Probably not. Simon Magnus another deal all together. He obviously thought he could merit salvation and sealing of the Holy Spirit.

JLB777 · Jun 25, 2018

redleghunter said:
Yet James 2:23 says "and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God."

The scriptures was fulfilled when Abraham obeyed God to offer him son.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. James 2:21-23

James demonstrates from Abraham’s life, in verse 21, the principle of faith, which is obedience.

In the next verse, 22, James referring to verse 21, asks us if we now see that faith work together with obedience was made complete.

Finally in verse 23, James still referring to Abraham and the incident with Isaac, whereby Abraham obeyed God, has now fulfilled the scripture from Genesis 15, which says Abraham believed God because he demonstrated he believe by his obedience to offer his son Issac on the altar.

The offering of Issac in obedience was the culmination of him believing.

This two-fold process is explained in Romans 10.

Believing in your heart and confessing with your mouth.

JLB777 · Jun 25, 2018

redleghunter said:
Now, let's be realistic. Do you think the souls who heard the gospel and responded by proclaiming Christ in word and in deed (by being baptized) in Acts 2 and 3 argued amongst themselves about the meaning of predestination and election?

No they didn’t.

They assumed that being Abraham’s offspring they were destined for salvation.

JLB777 · Jun 25, 2018

redleghunter said:
Simon Magnus another deal all together. He obviously thought he could merit salvation and sealing of the Holy Spirit.

I think and I should discuss the difference in initial salvation by faith and receiving the salvation of our soul as the end result of our faith.

redleghunter · Jun 25, 2018

redleghunter said:
Faith is a gift from God. Tracking.
However faith isn't 'activated' or "made alive" until the person obeys what God says. Not tracking as we are spiritually dead and can't respond unless made alive in the first place.

By which faith came to them. Thinking here, you are saying faith comes to those who obey?

You responded to the bolded above...

JLB777 said:
Not so.

I gave ironclad proof we are dead in our trespasses, sons of disobedience, that even when we were dead in our transgressions, God made us alive together with Christ. Then the apostle tells us we are saved by Grace that is not of works lest we should boast.

JLB777 said:
The Gospel has s the power of God unto salvation

Indeed, what faculties do the spiritually dead, sons of disobedience dead in our trespasses have to respond to this Gift of Grace?

Matthew 13: NASB
10And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12“For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13“Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

14“In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;

15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’

16“But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. 17“For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

We can conclude a couple of things here. Either God gives ears that hear and eyes that see or somehow it is genetically inclined. I opt for the former which is consistent with Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2. Also squares with John 10:27-30 as well.

JLB777 said:
Shall I break down the Gospel and the process ?

redleghunter · Jun 25, 2018

sdowney717 said:
2 thessalonians 2
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our [h]epistle.

Brother I took the liberty of breaking down your verse to emphasize what you are pointing out.

1. Divine Election: God from the beginning chose you for salvation

2. born again (taking out the heart of stone replacing with a heart of flesh) sanctification by the Spirit

3. Responding to the Gospel in faith: and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel

4. For the Glory of God!: for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

redleghunter · Jun 25, 2018

JLB777 said:
I think and I should discuss the difference in initial salvation by faith and receiving the salvation of our soul as the end result of our faith.

Or we could just use the Biblical term of Justification by faith.

redleghunter · Jun 25, 2018

Paul of Eugene OR said:
But what if they, of their own free will, decide to continue here?

As long as their 'free will' is in bondage to righteousness!

redleghunter · Jun 25, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
You see, the sovereignity of God, the way God sees it, is more complex than the childish "God controls everything." That is easy so a number take that childish view and say that is it.

Is the "God controls everything" a direct quote from someone, or are you being facetious?

JLB777 · Jun 25, 2018

redleghunter said:
I gave ironclad proof we are dead in our trespasses, sons of disobedience, that even when we were dead in our transgressions, God made us alive together with Christ. Then the apostle tells us we are saved by Grace that is not of works lest we should boast.

Yes. Grace.

Grace is the Holy Spirit; The Spirit of grace.

The Gospel is Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

This is God’s loving invitation to be transferred into the kingdom of His dear Son. The kingdom of God.

It is also a command that must be obeyed, in which God’s Spirit is available during the preaching of those sent to announce the Gospel, to empower the lost unto salvation.

The Spirit empowers those who are sent with the word of truth, the Gospel of our salvation, in which those who obey through the Spirit, are born again and cleansed from their past sins.

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23

JLB

Problem with Election

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