Problem with Election

[98cwitr]

I see, so your promoting Universal Reconciliation?


So a person doesn't have to believe the Gospel.

In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, Ephesians 1:11-13



JLB

Completely twisting my words. I'm not promoting universalism, and of course people must have faith in the Gospel. What I am saying is that God is the giver of faith, it's not self-manifested.

 

[98cwitr]

Matt 7 - good works come only from good trees.

First you must make the tree good - then you get good fruit.

The Bible never calls the "choice" to turn to God "salvation by works" but it is the first step to being turned into a good tree as Romans 10:9 points out.

There are two different kinds of justification.

1. James 2 and Romans 2 point to justification of an already good tree seen in its good fruit.
2. Romans 3 and Romans 5 point to the justification that happens by faith when a sinner turns to accept the Gospel by faith.

We're all bad trees:

Mark 10:18
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

 

[BobRyan]

We're all bad trees:

Mark 10:18
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

True it is the new birth that makes us a good tree. However choosing to accept the Gospel is never called "salvation by works" in the Bible.

What is more Romans 10 points to the fact that such a choice comes before being turned into a good tree.


Rom 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Clearly the new birth miracle comes after the choice of Romans 10:9

==============================

Consider these "laments" of God.

Calvinism claims God is the source of His own lament - by answering the Isaiah 5:4 question "What MORE could I have done " by saying "Yes Lord we know what you forgot to do - you forgot to first make them born-again so all their choices would follow what you want"

Matthew 23
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

Isaiah 5:4
"What MORE could I have done that I have not done!"

========================

But instead of Calvinism's "bust down the door and make them born-again then go back outside and ask them to make the right decision" -- God says this

"I STAND at the door and knock - if any hears My voice AND opens the door I will come in" Rev 3

 

[98cwitr]

"However choosing to accept the Gospel is never called "salvation by works" in the Bible."

That's because choosing to accept the Gospel isn't in the bible.

I've already commented on your scripture postings, please see post #739

 

[ladodgers6]

The principle of predestination is God foresaw who would choose Christ, and He chose them.

If God did not foresee who would believe the Gospel, then how did He write their names in the book of Life before the foundation of the world?

JLB

Thanks for sharing. Yes, I understand what you are saying. Please read this excerpt, and address the questions that arise.

Many will concede that God chose people, but based on his foreknowledge of their own choice. However, this is excluded in the sweep of Paul’s statement in verse 13, as in verse 11: ‘for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand….’ If God’s election depended on our foreseen decision, this not only raises a question concerning God’s grace (i.e., foreseen merit is merit nonetheless), but also concerning human sinfulness. After all, if God looked down the corridor of time what would he have seen in us besides sin and resistance? How could he foresee an exercise of the will that he himself did not grant, since ‘no one can come to the Father unless the one who sent me draws him’ (Jn.6:44)?

Michael Horton

 

[ladodgers6]

There is no such thing as "saved by a more complete story" - the Gospel reaches all mankind in the basics.

Thus "I will draw ALL mankind unto Me" John 12:32 and not "I will inform all mankind of every possible detail in the Gospel".

And also "The Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" not just the elect whom God knows in His foreknowledge will accept.

And the result is Rom 2:13-16 that those who have no access to the Bible details at all - are in some case saved and the New Covenant promise of the "Law written on the heart" by the Holy Spirit can be seen in them.

That is not universalism
It is also not universal informationism where all have the exact same degree of gospel details available to them.

James 4:17 "to him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin"

Yes, I understand. We believe that not all called, are chosen. This, what you wrote here. If God draws ALL mankind unto Christ. Why are not, ALL saved?

Please remember I am only sharing. How does this Scripture fit into your beliefs?

John 6:37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Proverbs 16:9
Proverbs 20:24
Isaiah 45:7
Job 1

If you do not have the kindness and courtesy to copy and paste the verses as well as the honesty, then do not be surprised if I do not answer. My experience with those who do not actually quote the reference is they don't really know it well not having read it much but heard from someone that this is a good defense. It is just too cowardly to discuss. I mean shall we throw what other people wrote instead of think about it. The Bereans studied the scriptures not merely spit out verses.

 

[98cwitr]

If you do not have the kindness and courtesy to copy and paste the verses as well as the honesty, then do not be surprised if I do not answer. My experience with those who do not actually quote the reference is they don't really know it well not having read it much but heard from someone that this is a good defense. It is just too cowardly to discuss. I mean shall we throw what other people wrote instead of think about it. The Bereans studied the scriptures not merely spit out verses.

They're clickable links. Do you wish to address what you said? If God being sovereign over His creation makes Him a "dictator" in your mind, then I am sorry you feel that way.

 

[sdowney717]

True it is the new birth that makes us a good tree. However choosing to accept the Gospel is never called "salvation by works" in the Bible.

What is more Romans 10 points to the fact that such a choice comes before being turned into a good tree.


Rom 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Clearly the new birth miracle comes after the choice of Romans 10:9

==============================

Consider these "laments" of God.

Calvinism claims God is the source of His own lament - by answering the Isaiah 5:4 question "What MORE could I have done " by saying "Yes Lord we know what you forgot to do - you forgot to first make them born-again so all their choices would follow what you want"

Matthew 23
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

Isaiah 5:4
"What MORE could I have done that I have not done!"

========================

But instead of Calvinism's "bust down the door and make them born-again then go back outside and ask them to make the right decision" -- God says this

"I STAND at the door and knock - if any hears My voice AND opens the door I will come in" Rev 3

No, being born again is not salvation, it is part of the process, there still remains that you must believe. Being born again first makes that possible as that is the Holy Spirit's work making you clean with a new heart. This is a being sanctified, cleansing process taking place in your heart which prepares you to make the good confession in Christ.
God chose us from the beginning, before time began, to be of His elect saved people because He LOVED US FIRST.
Salvation begins with sanctification ( the new heart, born of God), then our belief (the sealing in the Holy Spirit) The heart believes unto righteousness because God has made the saved person born of God.

2 thessalonians 2
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our [h]epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

Before time began, God gave to us our election according to His purpose and will, so from the beginning. Bringing up verses where Christ laments the fate of Jerusalem simply shows His lamenting of their rejection of Christ and has nothing to do with salvation, how people God saves are saved.

2 Timothy 1:8-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
Not Ashamed of the Gospel
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

 

[Bobber]

The problem is you do not believe in salvation by grace.

Well you don't get to corner the market on just how all terms are rightly defined according to the Bible.

You define grace as man working on his own thoughts and hearts to bring himself to God and that this is available to all people because of general revelation of God in the things that He has made.

No I'm telling you it's a starting point God uses towards for spiritual beings to call out for God.

But the verse you quoted saves no one, it shows their condemnation of unbelief, not belief.

Of course. Because he's stating they so chose to suppress the truth. I notice when you quote verses you leave out the whole verse...let's put it down. You stated with verse 20...lets go back to verse 18.

(18)The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. (20)For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1: 18-20

Let's go over this....why are they without excuse? Because they are what they are and being what they are makes them without excuse even though they can't do anything about it and never could? No! They knew of God BECAUSE of creation and because they knew of God, GOD expected more from them. What? To accept the truth AND NOT SUPPRESS IT. God expected that of them and it's insane to suggest he didn't. I mean you can't get anymore clearer! And because they suppressed it God basically said FINE...go your own way...AND...he gave them up to.....!

And to add insult to injury Calvinists would have us believe that these ungodly people who couldn't have done nothing about it so God even dumps on them a greater problem? (that is he gives them up to lusts) Is that believable? In any fair court, legal system which has any sense of civilized justice....if people HAVE EXCUSE than they have it. If individuals are born into a way of no fault of their own a certain way and there's nothing they can do to change it...then they have an EXCUSE.

But if there was a way they could have changed something by not suppressing the truth which should have made them yes in their natural state to call upon God...and they still refused to do it...THEN...at that point they're without excuse. What does all this tell us then. It tells us Total Depravity that is in the way that Calvinists are putting it forth I'm sorry but it cannot stand the test of scripture, or even any conscious way of thinking about civilized justice.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Anyone who is not 'of the Elect' should leave this thread immediately!

But what if they, of their own free will, decide to continue here?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

They're clickable links. Do you wish to address what you said? If God being sovereign over His creation makes Him a "dictator" in your mind, then I am sorry you feel that way.

But you have not said anything regarding what you think those isolated words say. And if you do not see that if one says God controlls the acts of every single man from the beginning to the end make hims a dictator, then that is really sad. It means you have shut down your mind. One sees this not seldom. One makes statments about God that make his character to be quite evil and insist God is good. Similar to God is micromanagine every act but is not a tryant. This is embracing nonsense for the sake of one's chosen position. The price for knowing the truth is being willing to give up one's favoured positions that almsot always feed something of the flesh.

You see, the sovereignity of God, the way God sees it, is more complex than the childish "God controls everything." That is easy so a number take that childish view and say that is it.

 

[ladodgers6]

If you do not have the kindness and courtesy to copy and paste the verses as well as the honesty, then do not be surprised if I do not answer. My experience with those who do not actually quote the reference is they don't really know it well not having read it much but heard from someone that this is a good defense. It is just too cowardly to discuss. I mean shall we throw what other people wrote instead of think about it. The Bereans studied the scriptures not merely spit out verses.

Well, that's odd Dorothy. You accusing someone for fabricating the truth. Your accounts of Calvin murdering Servetus, and Calvin being buried in a unmarked grave. Were false accounts.

 

[redleghunter]

Predestined for salvation and salvation through faith is a contradiction.



JLB

Not if the Giver is for both.

 

[redleghunter]

Yes faith is given by God as a gift, however faith isn’t activated or “made alive” until the person obeys what God says, by which faith came to them.

Faith is a gift from God. Tracking.
However faith isn't 'activated' or "made alive" until the person obeys what God says. Not tracking as we are spiritually dead and can't respond unless made alive in the first place.

By which faith came to them. Thinking here, you are saying faith comes to those who obey?

 

[redleghunter]

Do you understand a person must obey the Gospel to be saved; regenerated?

What are you defining as "obey?"

This?

Romans 10: NASB
9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

 

[redleghunter]

The principle of predestination is God foresaw who would choose Christ, and He chose them.

Meaning man is sovereign when it comes to justification by faith. Again, how does this work when we are spiritually dead?

Ephesians 2: NASB
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

If God did not foresee who would believe the Gospel, then how did He write their names in the book of Life before the foundation of the world?

There is another explanation as you know. It puts God Sovereign over His own salvation:

Ephesians 1: NASB
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Really fits like a glove. By His purpose for His Glory. Praise be to God.

 

[redleghunter]

That is an assumption that Calvinism makes to prove its conclusions. But a Calvinist conclusion based on the "given" being a Calvinist assumption - is not a rigorous proof of it. It is almost a circular one.

Doesn't God need to take the heart of stone out and replace it with a heart of flesh? How do the dead respond on their own without being quickened by God? That's not Calvin that's Ezekiel 11, 36, Ephesians 1 and 2 and more if you want them.

 

[redleghunter]

Ezekiel 11:19
I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.

Ezekiel 36
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

Amen. The above is what I believe Jesus was trying to teach Nicodemus in John 3. However, at the time, Nicodemus did not possess the mind necessary to comprehend the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:6-8 ; 13-14)

 

[redleghunter]

But we do not see that man "cannot choose without first having the new heart" so then - without first being born-again

We do see that man is spiritually dead UNTIL God makes him alive.

Ephesians 2: NASB
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.