Problem with Election

GodsGrace101 · Jun 22, 2018

sdowney717 said:
2 Peter 3:8-9 New King James Version (NKJV)
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward [a]us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

This verse many people mangle saying God waits patiently for all people to believe. Peter though is writing to a group of elect persons, that is the audience of the 'us'.
Your election by God comes before your believing.
US is not the unbelieving world who God knows will never believe, it is written to the elect of God who will believe. Why would God wait patiently for those He knows will never believe. See it is not logical. God is longsuffering towards His elect, not willing that any of 'us' elect perish. And this agrees with Christ.

Here Christ tells us about the elect of God, He is not willing that any of them perish, it is the same as what Peter is saying. God has the 99 sheep, and if one wanders gets lost, He goes after that sheep and saves it.
God owns the sheep , they are His, the belong to Him. The elect are His possession, a people He has taken out of all the population of the world to be His

Matthew 18:12-14 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? 13 And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

Why indeed?
It truly makes no sense.

Maybe God is waiting for as many persons to be saved as is possible before the end? Maybe because it's up to THEM to decide to choose to be saved by Jesus who died for everyone who wishes to believe in Him.

As to what comes first...

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

1. The gospel is preached.
2. The gospel is received.
3. The person accepts the gospel.
4. The person is saved.

Romans 10:17
"Faith comes by hearing
And hearing the word of God."

Romans 10:13
"For whoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved".

ladodgers6 · Jun 22, 2018

BobRyan said:
Calvinist "election" -- is little more than "arbitrary selection" of the "few" in Matthew 7 over the "many".

but in Romans 2:11 we find "God is NOT partial" -- which is the opposite of Calvinist "election" because in Calvinist "election" there is not supposed to be one scintilla of difference between a lost person that is elect to become saved... and a lost person who is not.

Election is the unchangeable purpose of God, whereby, before the foundation of the world, He has out of mere grace, according to the sovereign good pleasure of His own will, chosen from the whole human race, which had fallen through their own fault from the primitive state of rectitude into sin and destruction, and redeemed in Christ, whom He from eternity appointed the Mediator and Head of the elect and the foundation of salvation. This elect church, though by nature neither better nor more deserving than others, but with them involved in one common misery, God has decreed to give to Christ to be saved by Him, and effectually to call and draw them to His communion by His Word and Spirit; to bestow upon them true faith, justification, and sanctification; and having powerfully preserved them in the fellowship of His son, finally to glorify them for the demonstration of His mercy, and for the praise of the riches of His glorious grace; as it is written "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves." (Eph 1:4-6). And elsewhere: "And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." (Rom 8:30).
Canons of Dort (1.7)

Greg Merrill · Jun 22, 2018

ladodgers6 said:
I beg to differ. We as Christians must read & study God's Word, so that we are not deceived. Its okay to take questions or doubts Christians have and address them together. Not to, leaves doubts!

I agree, but there are so many that are already set in their thinking and just want to try to argue people over to their position, and it just turns into a "butting of the heads", not a bringing people to the truth.

ladodgers6 · Jun 22, 2018

Grace is God’s unmerited favor to ill-deserving sinners in Jesus Christ. The presence of the risen Christ, extending God’s forgivness and power so that God’s provision of His Son for redemption is effected through the agency of the Holy Spirit in the heart of man.

Grace is eternal (II Tim. 1:9), immutable (Rom. 11:29), sovereign (Rom. 9:11-24), effectual (Eph. 2:8-9; John 6:37, 39, 44, 63-65), and destroys all room for human boasting (I Cor. 1:29-31; 4:7). It means that the Triune God gets all the praise, honor, and glory for our salvation: The Father for planning it, the Son for purchasing it, and the Holy Spirit for applying and uniting us to it (Eph. 1:2-14). Christ is not only efficient, but is alone sufficient for salvation (Heb 9:12; 10:10) such that our own merit or works righteousness can do nothing to either attain or maintain our justification. The assistance of grace does not even depend on the humility or obedience of man ... for it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble ...as the Apostle says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10). Faith is, therefore, not a product of our unregenerated human nature (John 1:13, 6:63-65; Rom 9:16) but is exercised as the infallible result of the work of the Holy Spirit opening our eyes and ears to the beauty of the gospel, turning our heart of stone to a heart of flesh and uniting us to Christ.
Monergism.com

So where is my peace of conscience found? Where is my assurance found? In what I do? Or what God did for me! He Alone is our Redeemer, Savior, and Lord!!!

Romans 8:33 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

I love Romans, I will quote the run of the passages here to understand it better!

More Than Conquerors

31What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:

“For your sake we face death all day long;

we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Hope this helps???

BobRyan · Jun 22, 2018

ladodgers6 said:
Election is the unchangeable purpose of God

1 Peter 1
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

"elect according to foreknowledge" -- is very different from arbitrary selection. "Foreknowledge of what?". Foreknowledge of what would happen in the future. Who would accept and who would not.

"I stand at the door and knock IF anyone hears My void AND opens the door... I WILL come in" Rev 3

ladodgers6 said:
"This elect church, though by nature neither better nor more deserving than others, but with them involved in one common misery, (equally guilty, equally condemned) God has decreed to give to Christ to be saved by Him, and effectually to call and draw (1.7)

interesting "tradition".

Rom 8: 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,

Foreknew what? --- answer - their choice.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

So then not too surprising to find "God is not partial" Rom 2:11 -- just when Calvinism's form of election says He most certainly is.

"What more could I have done - that I have not done" asks God in Isaiah 5:4

Surely in that case above - Calvinism makes God the author of His own lament.

If ever there was "election" there is in the case of "His own"
"He came to His own - and His own received Him not" John 1:11

"O Jerusalem...how I wanted to spare your children... but you would not" Matthew 23

God "in lament" just when Clavinism's election says no-such-thing can exist for our sovereign God.

BobRyan · Jun 22, 2018

Greg Merrill said:
Getting a "take" on "Election" is just looking for an argument. It will lead to disunity rather than unity among believers. I can imagine that there are unbelievers out there that just want to stir up trouble between Christians by posting such a post as this. Proverbs 6:19

No doubt - but the "elephant in that living room" is that both believers and non-believers can easily see that in the myriad of denominations (including the Catholic ones) - there is much conflicting doctrine as compared the denomination across the street. Can't hide that one.

ladodgers6 · Jun 22, 2018

Greg Merrill said:
I agree, but there are so many that are already set in their thinking and just want to try to argue people over to their position, and it just turns into a "butting of the heads", not a bringing people to the truth.

I totally agree with this! I am dealing with other poster who only wants to name call, insult, and disrespect just for the sake in doing so. I did not participate in that mud slinging contest. I seek only the truth! And I want to for people to do it through Love & patience with others.

In this forum we should be able to share ideas, and also be prepare to reshape our thinking. I have been corrected many time throughout my years. And I am not ashamed to admit it; truth is all I seek! Should not be mean, disrespectful, rude, towards to each other, no matter what religion we are from. How is that demonstrated our Christian Love, especially when we are speaking about God's word. That has always perplexed me. So share with love!

Hope this helps???

God Bless!

In Christ Our Redemption, Justification, and Sanctification 1 Cor. 1:30

ladodgers6 · Jun 22, 2018

BobRyan said:
1 Peter 1
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

"elect according to foreknowledge" -- is very different from arbitrary selection. "Foreknowledge of what?". Foreknowledge of what would happen in the future. Who would accept and who would not.

"I stand at the door and knock IF anyone hears My void AND opens the door... I WILL come in" Rev 3

interesting "tradition".

Rom 8: 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,

Foreknew what? --- answer - their choice.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

Thanks for your comments. I do have question. How do you rectify these passages with your beliefs?

Praise for Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5heb predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9hed made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

98cwitr · Jun 22, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
I read the bible as written. I could not see predestination there.
When I saw the word "predestined" it did take me aback...but from all I had read till then, I knew it had to mean something else.

I felt, and always have from then, that God would like all humanity to be saved -- but, being a just God --- a person has to WANT to be saved. They have to want to be on God's side.

Also, I know persons that were Christian, for example, and then they became JW's. Or VV. Some of it has to do with approaching the bible with preconceived ideas, but not in every case.

May I ask: Why do you believe God created any rule that would result in the punishment of hell?

ladodgers6 · Jun 22, 2018

98cwitr said:
May I ask: Why do you believe God created any rule that would result in the punishment of hell?

Thanks for question. Sure, God's Law is God's Holy Moral Character! God wants us perfectly Holy, not just close enough to be Holy. In Reformed Theology, we teach that believers must uphold the Law. The Law for Christians is the rule for Christian living. But we are free from the curse of the Law. To live to God as Paul says in Romans 6. We do not deny this, but the misconception is that we do!

Hope this helps???

God Bless!

In Our Redemption, Justification, and Sanctification 1 Cor. 1:30

GodsGrace101 · Jun 22, 2018

98cwitr said:
May I ask: Why do you believe God created any rule that would result in the punishment of hell?

Which rule would that be??

98cwitr · Jun 22, 2018

ladodgers6 said:
Thanks for question. Sure, God's Law is God's Holy Moral Character! God wants us perfectly Holy, not just close enough to be Holy. In Reformed Theology, we teach that believers must uphold the Law. The Law for Christians is the rule for Christian living. But we are free from the curse of the Law. To live to God as Paul says in Romans 6. We do not deny this, but the misconception is that we do!

Hope this helps???

God Bless!

In Our Redemption, Justification, and Sanctification 1 Cor. 1:30

As a Calvinist, I'm sure you're not suggesting that God's Will fails, in that He wants all humans perfectly Holy, but obviously does not achieve it with the non-elect? Should I read "us" in your statement as the elect exclusively?

98cwitr · Jun 22, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
Which rule would that be??

Unfaithfulness.

Dr Bruce Atkinson · Jun 22, 2018

Marvin Knox said:
No fault of their own?
Someone needs to take a trip down to the river and identify with sinners.
This is really basic stuff you're missing.

The OP does not believe God chooses arbitrarily. Calvin did not believe that. I don't believe that. No one I know of believes that.

No - you got that wrong. No one believes such a thing - certainly not Calvinists.

Calvinists believe no such thing.
Where on earth do you get these ideas?

Please tell us.

You are the one who is mixed up.

You misrepresent what others believe and then reject what you have made up about their beliefs.

You obviously don't know anything about what Calvinists believe.
Why aren't you asking them questions about their beliefs rather than making statements based on your misconceptions?

Again with your silliness.
No one believes the things you say they do.

No - you write what you are mistaken about.

No reason at all?
Again - you need to do a study on the nature of fallen mankind as well as basic Reformed theology.

That's just after reading the third page of your misinformation. I'll leave it at that for now.

I see something about Italy on your identification.

Might you be a Roman Catholic? That would explain a lot about your unwillingness to study the Word of God for yourself.

I totally agree. Someone has been telling lies to Marvin Knox such that he now completely misunderstands the biblical doctrines clarified by the Reformers. It does sound like an uneducated lay Catholic way of thinking.

GodsGrace101 · Jun 22, 2018

98cwitr said:
Unfaithfulness.

God is a just God.
He wants our faith in Him in order to be saved.
Faith is what saves.
We are saved by grace through our faith in Him.
This faith makes us trust Him and follow Him as His disciples.
We thus believe in Jesus and therefore obey Him and His commands.

If we lose this faith, we can no longer be saved because it's faith that saves.

Jesus has the life in Him. We draw our life from Him. He is the vine; as long as we remain in Him we can live...if we detach ourselves from Him, we lose our spirit life.
John 15:1-6

ladodgers6 · Jun 22, 2018

98cwitr said:
As a Calvinist, I'm sure you're not suggesting that God's Will fails, in that He wants all humans perfectly Holy, but obviously does not achieve it with the non-elect? Should I read "us" in your statement as the elect exclusively?

I do not know who the elect are? Calvin called it the invisible church, for only God knows. Sorry, I'm not trying to avoid the question. What's the Baptist view on Election?

98cwitr · Jun 22, 2018

ladodgers6 said:
I do not know who the elect are? Calvin called it the invisible church, for only God knows. Sorry, I'm not trying to avoid the question. What's the Baptist view on Election?

Unfortunately the Calvinist Baptists and the Armenian Baptists are a bit split on the topic. I'm not sure you have to know who the elect are in order to answer the question. Let me rephrase: Does God want to make all people conformed to the image of Christ?

GodsGrace101 · Jun 22, 2018

Dr Bruce Atkinson said:
I totally agree. Someone has been telling lies to Marvin Knox such that he now completely misunderstands the biblical doctrines clarified by the Reformers. It does sound like an uneducated lay Catholic way of thinking.

@Marvin Knox would do well to misundestand reformed theology.

98cwitr · Jun 22, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
God is a just God.
He wants our faith in Him in order to be saved.
Faith is what saves.
We are saved by grace through our faith in Him.
This faith makes us trust Him and follow Him as His disciples.
We thus believe in Jesus and therefore obey Him and His commands.

If we lose this faith, we can no longer be saved because it's faith that saves.

Jesus has the life in Him. We draw our life from Him. He is the vine; as long as we remain in Him we can live...if we detach ourselves from Him, we lose our spirit life.
John 15:1-6

So why did God make such a rule; a rule that if broken lands us in hell? It stands to reason that if God wished all to come to Him, He would have refrained from placing conditions on salvation, and rather permitted Universalism to exist, yes?

Even the most staunch atheist is going to come to the knowledge that God exists when they die I believe.

GodsGrace101 · Jun 22, 2018

Marvin Knox said:
No fault of their own?
Someone needs to take a trip down to the river and identify with sinners.
This is really basic stuff you're missing.

The OP does not believe God chooses arbitrarily. Calvin did not believe that. I don't believe that. No one I know of believes that.

No - you got that wrong. No one believes such a thing - certainly not Calvinists.

Calvinists believe no such thing.
Where on earth do you get these ideas?

Please tell us.

You are the one who is mixed up.

You misrepresent what others believe and then reject what you have made up about their beliefs.

You obviously don't know anything about what Calvinists believe.
Why aren't you asking them questions about their beliefs rather than making statements based on your misconceptions?

Again with your silliness.
No one believes the things you say they do.

No - you write what you are mistaken about.

No reason at all?
Again - you need to do a study on the nature of fallen mankind as well as basic Reformed theology.

That's just after reading the third page of your misinformation. I'll leave it at that for now.

I see something about Italy on your identification.

Might you be a Roman Catholic? That would explain a lot about your unwillingness to study the Word of God for yourself.

How come you never explained what Calvinism teaches?
Did you forget?
It would be nice to know since I'm so ignorant on the subject.

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