Problem verses?

[pmathew2011]

Do you think John 6:48-58, 1 Corinthians 10:16 and 1 Corinthians 11:23-29 are hard to digest scripture verses for non-Catholics? While Catholics believe these clearly point to the Eucharist celebration/ Lord' Supper, how does the non-Catholic deal with these scripture verses?

 

[wayfaring man]

Well quite some time ago, I was in a situation where I found myself suffering because of someone else's failing, and was led to shine on them with forgiveness, and then it hit me like a sledge hammer, that we can eat wafer after wafer after wafer, and drink cup after cup after cup of wine...but until we actually suffer for another and freely forgive them by the love of God flowing through us, we haven't truly communed with the spirit of Christ's broken body, or the essence of His spilled blood.

Without this experience the ceremony mainly serves as a reminder of what He has done, but with this experience a greater bond of fellowship with Him has begun.

These are the days !

wm

 

[buchalady]

Do you think John 6:48-58, 1 Corinthians 10:16 and 1 Corinthians 11:23-29 are hard to digest scripture verses for non-Catholics? While Catholics believe these clearly point to the Eucharist celebration/ Lord' Supper, how does the non-Catholic deal with these scripture verses?

Not a problem for me. Catholics cannot change their mind about the way these passages are interpreted for them because the Council of Trent says:

"Canon 1. - If any one shall deny that the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and therefore entire Christ, are truly, really, and substantially contained in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist; and shall say that He is only in it as in a sign, or in a figure, or virtually - let him be accursed."

I deny that the bread and wine were the literal flesh and blood of our Lord, when he instituted the memorial simply because he was standing there in the flesh, and with the blood still in His body, when he gave the bread and wine to the apostles. Since "blood is the life of the flesh," and if the bread and wine were actually his body and blood, there were two Christs present at the last supper......one a literal, living Christ, the other a dead Christ.

But.....an anathema is pronounced upon one who denies that the soul of Christ is not actually in the Eucharist. If the soul and divinity of Christ were truly and really contained in the sacraments they could not at the same time be truly and really contained in his body standing before the apostles.

The best that we can do is to agree to disagree, because I truly do not agree with the Catholic interpretation.

 

[buchalady]

Do you think John 6:48-58, 1 Corinthians 10:16 and 1 Corinthians 11:23-29 are hard to digest scripture verses for non-Catholics? While Catholics believe these clearly point to the Eucharist celebration/ Lord' Supper, how does the non-Catholic deal with these scripture verses?

John 6:48-58 "I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.

I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.

The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" So Jesus said to them, "Very, truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them.

Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which your ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live forever."

Our Lord did not refer to a commemorative supper here. The language must be literal or figurative.

In context, Jesus' expression is used figuratively.

On the day before, Jesus had fed the multitude of 5000 with two fish and five barley loaves from a lad. The miracle had such an impression on the people they were about to take Jesus by force and coronate him as king.

Jesus withdrew from the crowd and crossed the sea to Capernaum and the multitude followed him - expecting to be fed again that next day. Jesus told them that they were not following him because of his power, but because they had eaten their fill of the loaves.

Jesus told them to "not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of man will give to you."

The hungry mob, still wanting more food asked for a miracle such as Moses performed saying - "Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, "He gave them bread from heaven to eat." When Jesus pointed out the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world, they asked to be fed by such bread always.

Then Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst." John 6:35

The hunger is satisfied by coming to Christ.
The thirst is satisfied by believing in Christ.

Many of his own disciples, not understanding his spiritual message said "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" Jesus said, "Do you take offense at this?

It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail, the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit and life" John 6:61-63

So the expression "he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life" simply means that he who comes to Christ, and believes on Him, in obedience to His word, is made a partaker of his life, i.e., of his flesh and blood.

This passage in John is not hard to digest at all.

I will post my thoughts on the passages in Corinthians when I have time.

Blessings.

 

[wayfaring man]

"Canon 1. - If any one shall deny that the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and therefore entire Christ, are truly, really, and substantially contained in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist; and shall say that He is only in it as in a sign, or in a figure, or virtually - let him be accursed."

Transparent, feeble effort at feigning exclusivity - where none actually exists.

As the bird by wandering, as the swallow by flying, so the curse causeless shall not come. <-----> Proverbs 26:2

wm

 

[7angel]

The Eucharist - is not a celebration

The encounter Between disciples of Emmaus and Jesus, is an example of the Eucharist

Eucharist - Real Presence of the Lord

Catholics are unaware

 

[wayfaring man]

But if anyone can convince the masses that they literally have control over Jesus to ceremonially "dole Him out", at their discretion, then that gives them all the power.

So instead of acknowledging that "the power of Salvation", is given by God through Christ and The Holy Spirit, it is proclaimed to be through an institution of men, who bake wafers and make wine.

Hard to imagine ?!

wm

 

[tackattack]

In response to the OP. Why would they be hard to swallow, I believe communion is still quite prevelant in non-catholic services. I've had one at every Church I've been to. I don't believe the Lord required cannibalism, because he said.. take this bread... and drink this wine... If he had wanted cannibals, he would have had cut of fpart of himself during the last supper. Now if we want to get to foot-washing that's another subject!

 

[pmathew2011]

John 6:63 says What gives life is God's Spirit; man's power is of no use at all. Jesus was not mere man....He was God....that is why He said Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life! Eating a sinful man's flesh will not give you eternal life..or else all cannibals would be recepients of eternal life.

His Word we need to hear, and proclaim and obey....His body we are supposed to eat...and his blood we are supposed to drink! Read John 6:48-58 again...He commanded them to eat his flesh and drink his blood...that is why the people asked "how can this man give us his flesh to eat? And Jesus again commands them to eat his flesh and drink his blood!

I do know there are people who would argue....Jesus's flesh has nothing to do with everlasting life....that argument is so crazy...considering....the Word was made Flesh...dwelt among us...as a human....that God in Flesh died for us on Calvary....rose again....in flesh appeared to his disciples..even had supper with them and ascended into heaven in bodily form. Never forget ....God in human form...redeemed humans from sins!

 

[washedagain]

Do you think John 6:48-58, 1 Corinthians 10:16 and 1 Corinthians 11:23-29 are hard to digest scripture verses for non-Catholics? While Catholics believe these clearly point to the Eucharist celebration/ Lord' Supper, how does the non-Catholic deal with these scripture verses?

All Christians believe that these scriptures point to Lords supper. Not hard to digest at all. We celebrate the last supper/ communion weekly.

The issue is transubstantiation...that is, the the bread and wine are no longer bread and wine but are really, physically Jesus, body, blood, soul and divinity.

 

[buchalady]

The Lord's Supper is a feast, not a sacrifice. It is observed at a table, not an altar. It is eaten, not offered up.

Jesus said in Luke 22:30, "As my Father hath appointed a kingdom for me, so do I appoint for you that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom."

"Do this in remembrance of me" does not refer to official authority to sacrifice at an altar, but to the partaking of those emblems of our Lord's sacrifice "once for all."

The apostle Paul delivers the same charge to the whole congregation and explains them by saying "For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you do proclaim the Lord's death until he comes." 1 Cor. 11:26.

Our Lord meant that we should all eat and drink in memory of him and that is all he meant.

 

[buchalady]

Well quite some time ago, I was in a situation where I found myself suffering because of someone else's failing, and was led to shine on them with forgiveness, and then it hit me like a sledge hammer, that we can eat wafer after wafer after wafer, and drink cup after cup after cup of wine...but until we actually suffer for another and freely forgive them by the love of God flowing through us, we haven't truly communed with the spirit of Christ's broken body, or the essence of His spilled blood.

Without this experience the ceremony mainly serves as a reminder of what He has done, but with this experience a greater bond of fellowship with Him has begun.

These are the days !

wm

I believe you are spot on. That phrase "suffer for another" that you used reminds me of the apostle's words in Romans 12:1, "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service." Our Lord has sacrificed himself, "once for all" and we are to sacrifice ourselves, and not think that he is to keep sacrificing and sacrificing over and over.

I also believe that the word you used "fellowship" is also what communion is all about.

 

[washedagain]

The Lord's Supper is a feast, not a sacrifice. It is observed at a table, not an altar. It is eaten, not offered up.

Jesus said in Luke 22:30, "As my Father hath appointed a kingdom for me, so do I appoint for you that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom."

"Do this in remembrance of me" does not refer to official authority to sacrifice at an altar, but to the partaking of those emblems of our Lord's sacrifice "once for all."

The apostle Paul delivers the same charge to the whole congregation and explains them by saying "For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you do proclaim the Lord's death until he comes." 1 Cor. 11:26.

Our Lord meant that we should all eat and drink in memory of him and that is all he meant.

Amen and Amen!

 

[pmathew2011]

Paul addressing the Corinthians….in 1 Corinthians10:16-17 says,

“The cup we use in the Lord’s Supper and for which we give thanks to God: when we drink from it, we are sharing in the blood of Christ. And the bread we break: when we eat it, we are sharing in the body of Christ. Because there is the one loaf of bread, all of us, though many, are one body, for we all share the same loaf.”

Some say, the bread is just symbolic of Jesus’s body…but not the real body of Christ. My question then, is if it is just as symbolic bread/wafer and not the real body of Jesus…..then why was Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:27-31, warning the Church in Corinth, that if they received the body and blood of Christ in an unworthy manner….they would be “guilty of sin against the Lord’s body and blood”….he also talks very clearly of judgement….if it was just a wafer/bread made of wheat, then we could just say thank you Jesus for this wonderful wheat bread/wafer ….and just eat it anyhow…like we eat cake and biscuits from the bakery…there is no question of examining ourselves and no need to think about ever facing judgement. But because it is the Lord’s real body….we need to examine ourselves….have a good confession…and then receive the Lord’s body in a worthy manner…or else we would be bringing judgement on ourselves like Paul warned.

St. John Chrysostom declares: “It is not man that causes the things offered to become the Body and Blood of Christ, but He who was crucified for us, Christ himself. The Priest, in the role of Christ, pronounces these words, but their power and grace are God’s. This is my body, he says. This word transforms the things offered.”

 

[buchalady]

The phrase "not discerning the Body" is the careless failure to see the unity of those in Christ. One does drink damnation to himself when his behavior stands in judgment against him as he shares in a feast that is an expression of the oneness that is in Christ.

discerning [d&#618;&#712;s&#604;&#720;n&#618;&#331;]adj having or showing good taste or judgment; discriminating
discerningly adv
..............

We remember our fellowship with all others in the one body when we eat the bread. We remember our fellowship with all the saved ones when we drink the cup.

Communion is not just a religious word applied to a memorial ritual. Communion is sharing, participation in, fellowship, with the Father, Son and all of the children of God.

In their participation in the supper, the Corinthian disciples were eating and drinking in an unworthy manner, guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. They were failing to discern the oneness of the body. "For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself." 1 Cor. 11:17:34.

1Cr 11:20 When you meet together, it is not the Lord's supper that you eat.
1Cr 11:21 For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal, and one is hungry and another is drunk.
1Cr 11:22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not.

Some were pushing ahead of others, staying at the table until they ate their fill, and got drunk on the wine - not giving any thought to those others waiting to partake -- "One is hungry and another is drunk."

 

[buchalady]

St. John Chrysostom declares: “It is not man that causes the things offered to become the Body and Blood of Christ, but He who was crucified for us, Christ himself. The Priest, in the role of Christ, pronounces these words, but their power and grace are God’s. This is my body, he says. This word transforms the things offered.”

The hand of a priest can reach no higher than that of any humble child of God. Every child of God is invited to "have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way which Christ opened for us through the curtain of his flesh, and since we have a great high priest, we can draw near with true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water" Hebrews 10:19-22.

"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, in order that you may proclaim the mighty acts of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light." 1 Peter 2:9

"Since, then, we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast to our confession.

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weakness, . . . . . . ." Hebrews 4:14-15

Every child of God is "a priest of God." Jesus Christ is our High Priest. There is no mention of a "special priesthood" among men on earth in the Scripture. Anyone can make that claim but it doesn't make it so.

 

[tackattack]

John 6:63 says What gives life is God's Spirit; man's power is of no use at all. Jesus was not mere man....He was God....that is why He said Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life! Eating a sinful man's flesh will not give you eternal life..or else all cannibals would be recepients of eternal life.

His Word we need to hear, and proclaim and obey....His body we are supposed to eat...and his blood we are supposed to drink! Read John 6:48-58 again...He commanded them to eat his flesh and drink his blood...that is why the people asked "how can this man give us his flesh to eat? And Jesus again commands them to eat his flesh and drink his blood!

I do know there are people who would argue....Jesus's flesh has nothing to do with everlasting life....that argument is so crazy...considering....the Word was made Flesh...dwelt among us...as a human....that God in Flesh died for us on Calvary....rose again....in flesh appeared to his disciples..even had supper with them and ascended into heaven in bodily form. Never forget ....God in human form...redeemed humans from sins!

Please read that again.. with all the previous verses you excluded

25 When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”

26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’[c]” 32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

The disciples did not eat Jesus' flesh, they ate bread. Jesus told them that it was more meaningful than they accounted for, and is about learning from Jesus and fellowship.

Paul addressing the Corinthians….in 1 Corinthians10:16-17 says,

“The cup we use in the Lord’s Supper and for which we give thanks to God: when we drink from it, we are sharing in the blood of Christ. And the bread we break: when we eat it, we are sharing in the body of Christ. Because there is the one loaf of bread, all of us, though many, are one body, for we all share the same loaf.”

Some say, the bread is just symbolic of Jesus’s body…but not the real body of Christ. My question then, is if it is just as symbolic bread/wafer and not the real body of Jesus…..then why was Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:27-31, warning the Church in Corinth, that if they received the body and blood of Christ in an unworthy manner….they would be “guilty of sin against the Lord’s body and blood”….he also talks very clearly of judgement….if it was just a wafer/bread made of wheat, then we could just say thank you Jesus for this wonderful wheat bread/wafer ….and just eat it anyhow…like we eat cake and biscuits from the bakery…there is no question of examining ourselves and no need to think about ever facing judgement. But because it is the Lord’s real body….we need to examine ourselves….have a good confession…and then receive the Lord’s body in a worthy manner…or else we would be bringing judgement on ourselves like Paul warned.

St. John Chrysostom declares: “It is not man that causes the things offered to become the Body and Blood of Christ, but He who was crucified for us, Christ himself. The Priest, in the role of Christ, pronounces these words, but their power and grace are God’s. This is my body, he says. This word transforms the things offered.”

Please reread that. Does it say the flesh we break: when we eat it, we are sharing in the body of Christ? No it says the BREAD. If the symbolism isn't obvious to you from verse you prescribed, I don't know what will help you. We should all reconcile ourselves as best as we can with Christ before we partake communion, but who are we to share a place with the perfect God in flesh? If being worthy were a qualifier, I'm not sure anyone would ever take communion. We are purified by keeping Christ as the cornerstone of our life and faith, and as the navigator and wind of the ship we sail. Communion is a reminder of that relationship He wants to share with us, and should not be doled out by any middle man, IMO.

 

[pmathew2011]

<Every child of God is "a priest of God." Jesus Christ is our High Priest. There is no mention of a "special priesthood" among men on earth in the Scripture. Anyone can make that claim but it doesn't make it so.>

Not True ....as per scriptures....both in Old and New Testaments!

Firstly, 1 Peter 2:9 states &#8220;But you are the chosen race, the King&#8217;s priests, the holy nation, God&#8217;s own people, chosen to proclaim the wonderful acts of God, who called you out of darkness into his own marvelous light.&#8221;

In the above verse, Peter was making a reference similar to Exodus 19:5-6 which states &#8220;The whole earth is mine, but you will be my chosen people, a people dedicated to me alone, and you will serve me as priests&#8221;. From the above, one can conclude that the New Testament scriptures acknowledge a priestly ministry as in the Old Testament scriptures. And we know that the Israelities knew very well....that all Israelities were not called to be priests, just because there is mention in the Scriptures that "you will serve me as priests"!

Secondly, there are two very clear acknowledgements to a priestly ministry in the Book of Revelation. Revelation 1:5-6 states &#8220;He loves us, and by his sacrificial death he has freed us from our sins and made us a kingdom of priests to serve his God and Father.&#8221;

Revelation 5:10 further states &#8220;You have made them a kingdom of priests to serve our God, and they shall rule on earth.&#8221;

 

[buchalady]

<Every child of God is "a priest of God." Jesus Christ is our High Priest. There is no mention of a "special priesthood" among men on earth in the Scripture. Anyone can make that claim but it doesn't make it so.>

Not True ....as per scriptures....both in Old and New Testaments!

Firstly, 1 Peter 2:9 states &#8220;But you are the chosen race, the King&#8217;s priests, the holy nation, God&#8217;s own people, chosen to proclaim the wonderful acts of God, who called you out of darkness into his own marvelous light.&#8221;

In the above verse, Peter was making a reference similar to Exodus 19:5-6 which states &#8220;The whole earth is mine, but you will be my chosen people, a people dedicated to me alone, and you will serve me as priests&#8221;. From the above, one can conclude that the New Testament scriptures acknowledge a priestly ministry as in the Old Testament scriptures. And we know that the Israelities knew very well....that all Israelities were not called to be priests, just because there is mention in the Scriptures that "you will serve me as priests"!

Secondly, there are two very clear acknowledgements to a priestly ministry in the Book of Revelation. Revelation 1:5-6 states &#8220;He loves us, and by his sacrificial death he has freed us from our sins and made us a kingdom of priests to serve his God and Father.&#8221;

Revelation 5:10 further states &#8220;You have made them a kingdom of priests to serve our God, and they shall rule on earth.&#8221;

Sure there were priests appointed by God at Mt Sinai. When the people were gathered there to receive the law, the Lord said, "And also let the priests who come near to the Lord consecrate themselves, lest the Lord break out upon them" Exodus 19. The priesthood of Levi was a "special priesthood" appointed by God under the Covenant of Law which was between God and the Jews. All of the Jews were not included in the "special priesthood" under that covenant. Everyone who has studied any at all knows that there was a special priesthood under the law of Moses.

Christians are not living under that Old Covenant of Law - they are living under the New Covenant of Grace.

God inspired the apostle Peter to write about the priesthood of all believers. Peter shows that everyone who comes to the "living stone rejected by men" becomes in turn "a living stone" built into a holy priesthood.

The only condition to becoming a priest is coming to Christ. 1 Peter 2:5. God's priests are those who are "chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood" 1 Peter 1:2. The apostles shared the "priesthood" with every other citizen of heaven's rule, for the realm is "a kingdom of priests."

 

[pmathew2011]

<The only condition to becoming a priest is coming to Christ. >

That is not true....priestly ministry is a special ministry to serve God...it is not for everyone!

In Romans 15:16, St Paul says I serve like a priest in preaching the Good News from God.....He said like a priest....He obviously knew what a priestly ministry meant to be. Priesthood is not common place....not for everyone!

In the Bible, whether old or new testament, the word Priest has the same meaning....it does not change....It is also good for us to read up Revelation22:19....regarding removing anything ....No one can remove Priests or priesthood or make it common place....jusst because they have no priests in their Church...The two oldest Christian denominations from the time of Christ's immeditate disciples, the legitimate successors of the apostles....The Catholic and Orthodox Churches....have priests....2000 years of priesthood!