• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Problem Text

Status
Not open for further replies.

hindsey

Regular Member
Feb 7, 2005
405
26
✟685.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I was wondering if any of you have ever come up with a good resolution to the apparent problem between 2 Kings 8:26 and 2 Chronicles 22:2. The first says that Ahaziah was 22 when he began to reign, and the second says he was 42 when he began to reign.

And for the sake of my thread, I am a believer in the inerrancy of the KJV, so while I know many will disagree, please don't post in this thread: "it was a copyist or scribal error" or "it was a bad translation and should have been translated..." I would greatly appreciate that.

Thanks!
 

Nazaroo

Joseph is still alive! (Gen 45.26)
Dec 5, 2005
2,626
68
clinging to Jesus sandalstrap
✟25,730.00
Faith
Christian
There is a book called,
"The Mysterious Numbers of the Hebrew Kings", which shows clearly that there are two different calendars in use between Kings and Chronicles, which accounts plainly for not only the differences in the numbers, but also the exact amount of the differences between the various chronologies given in the two sets of books.

Try to locate a copy. I can't remember the author offhand, but I will try to find out for you.
 
Upvote 0

lorali

Active Member
Feb 22, 2006
68
4
✟208.00
Faith
Christian
hindsey said:
I was wondering if any of you have ever come up with a good resolution to the apparent problem between 2 Kings 8:26 and 2 Chronicles 22:2. The first says that Ahaziah was 22 when he began to reign, and the second says he was 42 when he began to reign.

And for the sake of my thread, I am a believer in the inerrancy of the KJV, so while I know many will disagree, please don't post in this thread: "it was a copyist or scribal error" or "it was a bad translation and should have been translated..." I would greatly appreciate that.

Thanks!
I think you have your answer in your question.
 
Upvote 0

Nazaroo

Joseph is still alive! (Gen 45.26)
Dec 5, 2005
2,626
68
clinging to Jesus sandalstrap
✟25,730.00
Faith
Christian
Sometimes things only have the appearance of being an 'error' or bad translation.

The book you need to sort out the alleged discrepancies in the numbers for the OT books is this:

The Mysterious Numbers of the Hebrew Kings, Edwin R. Thiele, 1983 Zondervan publish.
 
Upvote 0

HypnoToad

*croak*
Site Supporter
May 29, 2005
5,876
485
✟104,802.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0

Nazaroo

Joseph is still alive! (Gen 45.26)
Dec 5, 2005
2,626
68
clinging to Jesus sandalstrap
✟25,730.00
Faith
Christian
XianJedi said:
Before jumping blindly into the arms of Thiele, you might want to consider criticism of his work (from Bible-believing Christians, not atheists).

http://www.biblicalhorizons.com/ch/ch2_09.htm
and
http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v15/i1/chronology.asp?vPrint=1&vPrint=1

You are quite right that any scholarly proposals should be carefully considered and critiqued.

However, the very act of attempting to synchonize biblical data with external archaeological data will inevitably involve interpretation, and some kind of agreed upon basic minimal set of apparent facts, however cleverly they are accounted for.

Jordan's Critique

In your first link, James Jordan's article seems to simply assert that the text as we have it (even with variants?) is essentially inerrant, and this is not apparent from the actual surface data. He fails to show that previous workers in the field have at all adequately accounted for the obvious internal descrepancies in the text, and there are clearly plenty of them.

The main criticism that he levels against Theile is that Theile attempts to interpret the biblical data to be in harmony with established chronologies of other nations, arrived at independantly from their own records. He seems to imply that this is a methodological error, whereas this is hardly the case.

Also, he reduces the problem to a claim that secular scholars have simply made errors in reconstructing chronologies of these other nations. This is an oversimplification of the problem bordering on total dishonesty. The main problem of the O.T. records is their apparent SELF contradiction, which drives us to compare them with independant external records in the first place.

He finds fault with Theile as a 'well meaning' scholar who has made the 'blunder' of accepting archeaological work on records of other nations, although he admits Theile is obviously a bible-believing Christian with a high view of the accuracy of the Massoretic text, presumably the text Jordan would accept as 'inerrant' in the first place.

What he does *not* mention, which seems equally dishonest in his critique is that the men he quotes, such as Lightfoot, are hardly upholders of orthodox or fundamentalist viewpoints of the scriptures, such as the New Testament. Anyone conversant with Lightfoot's work on the NT and his adoption of the unsavory critical principles and findings of 19th century textual criticism will quickly realise that it is Lightfoot et al. who are the 'suspect' scholars, not Theile, who is the only one who has attempted to accept the readings of the O.T. at actual face value.

His quotation of another critic of Theile is also unimpressive. (again this man's non-fundamentalist background is skipped over without comment). Yes, Theile's 'system' is odd, and slightly unusual. But it is not odd at all that biblical editors (and the scribes who copy them) strongly resist the attempt to 'correct' their texts, even when conflating or combining them, an act which often actually generates apparent errors. The process of combining documents in O.T. was very naive and primitive, but also honest, and any urges to 'fix' the text have for the most part been successfully resisted by both editors and copyists. Jordan seems to take the opposite view that this known fact is 'implausible', and we should expect the compilers of Kings and Chronicles to have edited and fixed the text.

If that were true, of course there wouldn't be any descrepancies at all, and most of the problems would have been unknown because the evidence would have disappeared. That we actually have a problem among the books of Kings and Chronicles attests to the fact that Jordan is wrong and Theile is right. The scribes preserved original readings that derived from different systems of dating, reckoning and chronologies, and these are real problems that have to be parsed.


 
Upvote 0

hindsey

Regular Member
Feb 7, 2005
405
26
✟685.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
For the record, the conclusion I have come to is that Ahaziah had a co-regency with his father that lasted for 20 years. That is, at age 22, he began reigning alongside of his father, and then at the age of 42, he began reigning on his own...

to answer the argument: that's not found anywhere in the Bible - you're making it all up...
There are other examples of co-regency in the Bible. If you look even at Ahaziah's father Jehoram (or Joram), you'll find that he co-reigned with his father Jehoshaphat for about 8 years or so as well. You can see that because of the years that it says the king of Israel began to reign. That is, Joram, king of Israel, began to reign in the 2nd year of Joram, king of Judah, but it also says he began to reign in the 18th year of Jehoshaphat king of Judah. But Jehoshaphat also reigned for 25 years - therefore we have about 8 years of them reigning together... I believe that's what happened with Ahaziah as well.

So, I've not backed myself into a corner by believing that the KJV can be inerrant. At this point, to avoid turning it into another KJV debate, unless there are any other suggested solutions, I will watch this one fade away...

Thanks!
 
Upvote 0

WAB

Well-Known Member
Nov 12, 2005
1,103
48
95
Hawaii
✟1,528.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
justified said:
Edwin Thiele has a host of articles and books out on the subject. His analysis is brilliant. HOWEVER, let me caution you that it is probably not correct. But it solves most of the problems in a satisfactory way, despite its unlikelihood.

Don't know... maybe I'm just getting too old.. but somehow I fail to see how a problem can be solved "in a satisfactory way" and still be "probably not correct".

Or... how an analysis can be "brilliant"..."despite its unlikelihood." :eek:
 
Upvote 0

justified

Well-Known Member
Oct 8, 2005
1,048
25
41
✟23,831.00
Faith
Protestant
Don't know... maybe I'm just getting too old.. but somehow I fail to see how a problem can be solved "in a satisfactory way" and still be "probably not correct".
I used to think that too. Then I started reading. You have scholars who can solve almost any problem ingeniously -- Albright's famous emendations, for example -- but which lack any real evidence or are extremely unlikely. Thiele's solutions and careful work are brilliant. I do not, however, believe they will be substantiated (nor can they be tested).

The Septuagint has twenty two in both passages.

Obviously though, it is not a copyist or scribal error.

Marv
Nicely played.
 
Upvote 0

BigNorsk

Contributor
Nov 23, 2004
6,736
815
67
✟33,457.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
BigNorsk said:
The Septuagint has twenty two in both passages.

Obviously though, it is not a copyist or scribal error.

Marv

I meant to say obviously a copyist or scribal error in the Septuagint. My original post was referring to the KJV but I see that it could be misread that the Septuagint didn't have an error there, and I didn't want to be misunderstood.

Marv
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.