Problem text .......

[cygnusx1]

I have been thinking about this scripture for days now ....

Romans 12:17-21​

Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

what I would like is for some inspired original thought ........ **please don't go to any commentary for at least a week , just try and give it some thought and please give us some imput.

(**I think commentaries should be used as a last resort)


Now here is the issue , Love and Justice.

These , like Law Grace , are seemingly incompatible , ie, you cannot have one and the other at the same time.
So my question would be , what kind of love is it that "heaps burning coals on our enemies" by doing them good?

This whole issue came up because our attitude towards sin and the sinner is complex ........ and our attitude towards Justice may need reworking after years of perhaps wrong thinking.

It has been said over and over that we should not seek to "punish the guilty" we should pray for him no matter what he has done , to be forgiven and saved.

But is this the attitude we should have ?

what about justice?

Now some would argue (in this case with merit) that Justice does involve Vengeance or Revenge.... Justice is giving a suitable just repayment for sin or sins according to God's Law.

The case before us is not merely love.

When God says "I will repay" is that not evidence that Love is NOT ALL THAT GOD HAS IN MIND REGARDING WICKEDNESS ?

Sure we are told not to take the Law into our own hands , so often we have the propensity for mistakes and may act unjustly. But nevertheless , we are told to give way to God's wrath , we are told that far from The Lord "rolling over" and going along with crime , GOD ACTIVELY SEEKS REVENGE!!!


There may be those who think I am wrong in my assumptions , I would ask you to take a good look at the Martyrs under the throne (in Revelation) what are they crying for ? and what does the Blood of the prophets , including Abel cry out for ? Is it not for the Lord to take Revenge ?

I think too often we have been given to believe that Love and vengeance cannot walk together , but here we are in this passage being given both aspects in a most remarkable way .......... Love your enemies ...... for by so doing you will be placing hot coals (God's Judgments) upon their heads .

Thanks for your imput.

 

[R.J.S]

The language of burning coals is figurative...they will be astounded and it will prick their conscience.

 

[HamletsChoice]

It has been said over and over that we should not seek to "punish the guilty" we should pray for him no matter what he has done , to be forgiven and saved.

But is this the attitude we should have ?

what about justice?

God has given the state the sword to execute justice and Christ has commanded us as "private individuals" to love, pray for, turn the other cheek and forgive our (His) enemies 70 times 7. I would never attempt to teach otherwise.

As we begin to reform our state to be more and more under God's Laws the justice it executes will be more and more like God's justice.

As private individuals we are commanded to love and forgive, but to also love to see God's justice executed in accordance with God's Laws but only by the proper sphere's it was intended (God and the state).

 

[R.J.S]

God has given the state the sword to execute justice and Christ has commanded us as "private individuals" to love, pray for, turn the other cheek and forgive our (His) enemies 70 times 7. I would never attempt to teach otherwise.

As we begin to reform our state to be more and more under God's Laws the justice it executes will be more and more like God's justice.

As private individuals we are commanded to love and forgive, but to also love to see God's justice executed in accordance with God's Laws but only by the proper sphere's it was intended (God and the state).

 

[cygnusx1]

The language of burning coals is figurative...they will be astounded and it will prick their conscience.

Hi Brother , happy New Year to you

I also think it is figurative but not in that manner , the context indicates "making room for God's wrath" so doing them good leads to their judgment in wrath .

In Romans 2 Paul makes it clear that the good gifts of common grace that are given to the impenitent SHOULD lead them to Repentance and salvation , they should be "pricked in conscience" but because of their hard hearts , they are turning these gifts into an increase of wrath , these good things are working against them ......

I remember reading about the way sinners hide their sin and Christ said that had he not come they would have had an excuse for sin , but because He came and spoke to them , they have no longer a cover ..... and I think that we are commanded to love our enemies for several reasons .
1. So that we may be like Our Father in Heaven , perfect.
2. So that we may leave the wicked with no excuses , stripping him of his vanity and "justification"

Also , it is clear that vengeance by God is in view unto the wicked , not forgiveness .

Which raises so many questions.

If someone killed someone you loved should you or I merely pray for that murderer to be forgiven ? what about while we are praying for his forgiveness we remember , "vengeance is mine sayeth The Lord" , is that not at odds with our prayer assuming we are asking The Lord to forego vengeance ???

 

[BarbB]

Morning - May I make an observation?

In the USA in many states after a person has been found guilty of a crime, especially a heinous one, there is a trial penalty phase, meaning that people can give their statements as to how the crime has impacted them. This has now devolved into histrionics for the most part, especially when it's on TV. How much more effective to say calmly "This crime has hurt my life emotionally and my family may never recover", giving examples quietly - all the while crying out to God for revenge and for the perpetrator's salvation. I would expect that prayer to avail much!

Happy New Year everyone!

 

[mlqurgw]

I think Paul answered your question in the last part of the passage. Be not overcome with evil but overcome evil with good. This is part of the reason I do not believe in sueing people. God alone is able to deal justly with evil and He does so. Man looks on the outward appearence but God looks on the heart. I believe Paul recognized our propensity to give back what we have gotten. I also think you mistake doing what is right with love in your question. You don't have to love people to do good to them but it is right to do good to them. Paul is simply teaching here that we are to do what is right and leave it to the Lord to dispence justice. This isn't a matter of civil justice that God has given to the state but a matter of personal heart attitude. Love and justice are not incompatible, look at the cross to see that. Psa. 85:10 Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other. Things which to us seem at opposite ends are met together in Christ. He is certainly the best example of overcomeing evil with good. Peter says pretty much the same thing in 1Pet. 2:12, 20-25. Everything in the context of the Gospel.

 

[cygnusx1]

I think Paul answered your question in the last part of the passage. Be not overcome with evil but overcome evil with good. This is part of the reason I do not believe in sueing people. God alone is able to deal justly with evil and He does so. Man looks on the outward appearence but God looks on the heart. I believe Paul recognized our propensity to give back what we have gotten. I also think you mistake doing what is right with love in your question. You don't have to love people to do good to them but it is right to do good to them. Paul is simply teaching here that we are to do what is right and leave it to the Lord to dispence justice. This isn't a matter of civil justice that God has given to the state but a matter of personal heart attitude. Love and justice are not incompatible, look at the cross to see that. Psa. 85:10 Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other. Things which to us seem at opposite ends are met together in Christ. He is certainly the best example of overcomeing evil with good. Peter says pretty much the same thing in 1Pet. 2:12, 20-25. Everything in the context of the Gospel.

I know that AnaBaptists are Pacifists and that be they raped or threatened they will "turn the other cheek" , they would move instead of fighting for their rights /....... I am not at all sure I would or even should .

also I don't think I am misunderstanding 'Love' for doing good to people ......... if I do good to folk but have no Love I am nothing (1 Corinthians 13) ........ and Love is the word given in Matthew 5 for doing good to our enemies ..... God could have used many words , He chose 'Love'.

When Christ died for us , yes Love and Justice met , through a subsitute , how does that fit this problem ?

I notice the Lord does not say , "how dare you demand Justice and vengeance , you should be like me , always forgiving" instead giving way to God's wrath by loving our enemies is in view .

 

[mlqurgw]

I know that AnaBaptists are Pacifists and that be they raped or threatened they will "turn the other cheek" , they would move instead of fighting for their rights /....... I am not at all sure I would or even should .

also I don't think I am misunderstanding 'Love' for doing good to people ......... if I do good to folk but have no Love I am nothing (1 Corinthians 13) ........ and Love is the word given in Matthew 5 for doing good to our enemies ..... God could have used many words , He chose 'Love'.

When Christ died for us , yes Love and Justice met , through a subsitute , how does that fit this problem ?

I notice the Lord does not say , "how dare you demand Justice and vengeance , you should be like me , always forgiving" instead giving way to God's wrath by loving our enemies is in view .

I think we are all prone to look for some meaning in a text that just isn't there. Sometimes we must simply take what is said for just what it says. Giving way to God's wrath is exactly what I said it was; leave it to God to dispense justice. I am not advocating passivity in everything. Paul does say as much as in you lies live peacably with all men. Love is not in view here though but doing what is right. While the two are certainly related Paul is not in this passage instructing us to love but to do what is right.

 

[cygnusx1]

Morning - May I make an observation?

In the USA in many states after a person has been found guilty of a crime, especially a heinous one, there is a trial penalty phase, meaning that people can give their statements as to how the crime has impacted them. This has now devolved into histrionics for the most part, especially when it's on TV. How much more effective to say calmly "This crime has hurt my life emotionally and my family may never recover", giving examples quietly - all the while crying out to God for revenge and for the perpetrator's salvation. I would expect that prayer to avail much!

Happy New Year everyone!

Happy New year newlamb

Just a few weeks ago in England two killers of a black teenager in Liverpool were sentenced , they killed their victim in a racist attack with an axe through the head , the victims mother announced she forgave these killers , now should we forgive the unrepentant , should we seek justice , and will The Lord expect us to pray for their forgiveness while He awaits in Vengeance ?

This problem is not new , Moses found himself by intercession willing to be blotted out for the sake of Israel , sometimes Jehovah heard him , but sometimes wrath was the answer .

 

[cygnusx1]

I think we are all prone to look for some meaning in a text that just isn't there. Sometimes we must simply take what is said for just what it says. Giving way to God's wrath is exactly what I said it was; leave it to God to dispense justice. I am not advocating passivity in everything. Paul does say as much as in you lies live peacably with all men. Love is not in view here though but doing what is right. While the two are certainly related Paul is not in this passage instructing us to love but to do what is right.

so you see no connection between :

Romans 12:20​

Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

Matthew 5:43 - 48​

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:

for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

[mlqurgw]

so you see no connection between :

Romans 12:20​

Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

Matthew 5:43 - 48​

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:

for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

No I don't because of the context. They are certainly related in that love does good to your enemies but that isn't what Paul is dealing with in the passage. Paul doesn't say love your enemies and heap coals on their head but do what is right and it will heap coals of fire on their head. I think I mentioned the related passage in 1Pet.

 

[Proeliator]

The language of burning coals is figurative...they will be astounded and it will prick their conscience.

I dont really think its all that figurative. I think it more meansthat if they receive the display of love and kindness, knowing that you are their enemy, and they don't come to God, you are "helping" them cement their place in hell.

 

[cygnusx1]

I dont really think its all that figurative. I think it more meansthat if they receive the display of love and kindness, knowing that you are their enemy, and they don't come to God, you are "helping" them cement their place in hell.

perhaps that is why we read of "kick the dust from off your feet" if they will not accept us and the Gospel , because we are only helping sinners up to a point and beyond that we are making it worse for them.

Interesting .... considering the Arminians often use psychological pressure on folks for a descision !

 

[Proeliator]

Romans 12:17-21​

Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

[/QUOTE]

Just thought Id throw this out there:
[size=+1]
Romans 12:17 mhdeni <3367> {TO NO ONE} kakon <2556> {EVIL} anti <473> {FOR} kakou <2556> {EVIL} apodidonteV <591> (5723) {RENDERING:} pronooumenoi <4306> (5734) {PROVIDING} kala <2570> {RIGHT [THINGS]} enwpion <1799> {BEFORE} pantwn <3956> {ALL} anqrwpwn <444> {MEN:}

[/size][size=+1]Romans 12:18 ei <1487> {IF} dunaton <1415> {POSSIBLE,} to <3588> {AS TO} ex <1537> {SELVES} umwn <5216> {YOUR} meta <3326> {WITH} pantwn <3956> {ALL} anqrwpwn <444> {MEN} eirhneuonteV <1514> (5723) {BEING AT PEACE;}

[/size][size=+1]Romans 12:19 mh <3361> {NOT} eautouV <1438> {YOURSELVES} ekdikounteV <1556> (5723) {AVENGING,} agaphtoi <27> {BELOVED,} alla <235> {BUT} dote <1325> (5628) {GIVE} topon <5117> {PLACE} th <3588> {TO} orgh <3709> {WRATH;} gegraptai <1125> (5769) {IT HAS BEEN WRITTEN,} gar <1063> {FOR} emoi <1698> {TO ME} ekdikhsiV <1557> {VENGEANCE!} egw <1473> {I} antapodwsw <467> (5692) {WILL RECOMPENSE,} legei <3004> (5719) {SAYS [THE]} kurioV <2962> {LORD.}

[/size][size=+1]Romans 12:20 ean <1437> {IF} oun <3767> {THEREFORE} peina <3983> (5725) o <3588> {SHOULD HUNGER} ecqroV <2190> {ENEMY} sou <4675> {THINE,} ywmize <5595> (5720) {FEED} auton <846> {HIM;} ean <1437> {IF} diya <1372> (5725) {HE SHOULD THIRST,} potize <4222> (5720) {GIVE DRINK} auton <846> {HIM;} touto <5124> {THIS} gar <1063> {FOR} poiwn <4160> (5723) {DOING,} anqrakaV <440> {COALS} puroV <4442> {OF FIRE} swreuseiV <4987> (5692) {THOU WILT HEAP} epi <1909> thn <3588> {UPON} kefalhn <2776> {HEAD} autou <846> {HIS.}

[/size][size=+1]Romans 12:21 mh <3361> {BE NOT} nikw <3528> (5744) {OVERCOME} upo <5259> tou <3588> {BY} kakou <2556> {EVIL,} alla <235> {BUT} nika <3528> (5720) {OVERCOME} en <1722> tw <3588> {WITH} agaqw <18> to <3588> {GOOD} kakon <2556> {EVIL.}

[/size]Interlinear Greek/English New Testament from 1894 Scrivener Textus Receptus with Strong's Numbers
(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT)