Problem of Evil?

Tree of Life said:

Yes. Christians believe that God did in fact create such a world in the beginning. But even aside from that, God could have possibly created a world that never fell into sin.

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Then his failure to do so in this world means he's not 'maximally good'.

Tree of Life said:

We are entering into a new section on the Problem of Evil. I really don't think that the Problem of Evil poses a serious challenge to Christian faith but I'd love to discuss it here. If you think that the Problem of Evil is somehow a serious challenge to Christianity, how would you state the problem and why do you think it's a challenge?

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I don't think it poses a problem for the Christian faith but it indicates the Christian God is not good if He exists.

bling said:

God will to do almost anything to help those willing to accept God's help. Job was a better person after all that he went through then he was before going through it. I am sure Job wanted to be a better person.

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But his subjective experience during all of his trials would have been extremely distressing. How exactly does torment make one a better person?

bling said:

Job was a better person after all that he went through then he was before going through it.

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The Bible doesn't say that. This is eisegesis.

bling said:

God was willing to allow His first and very best son to be tortured, humiliated and murdered by extremely evil people to just help me to fulfill my earthly objective.

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That’s the bit I don’t get. As a being of infinite power he could manage all that without needing to create a being with the sole intention of torturing him to death and then help you fulfil your Earthly objective.

Why not just not torture his son to death and then help you achieve your Earthly objective?

Tree of Life said:

I would maintain that God is all-good. He has never done anyone wrong and doesn't do wrong. But this doesn't make him omni-benevolent.

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Dunno how that is possible. Unless you are saying saying that if a man tortured someone that would be evil but if God did it that would not be evil?

Moral Orel said:

Not very good. We were created with a desire and a propensity to do evil. If we hadn't been, Eve never would have ate from that confounded tree.

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I thought Eve had no concept of evil until she ate from the tree of knowledge?

Larnievc said:

I thought Eve had no concept of evil until she ate from the tree of knowledge?

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Well, they were supposed to know the one rule because God gave it to them directly. But first He created them with a desire to disobey.

Tree of Life said:

Could you be more specific about what you’re referring to?

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I’m asking if you hold to the idea that whatever God does is good: even if it means (for example) horrendous suffering for people (such as Job).

Moral Orel said:

Well, they were supposed to know the one rule because God gave it to them directly. But first He created them with a desire to disobey.

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Doesn’t that take away their free will? Giving someone a desire to disobey seems to be setting Eve up for a fall.

Larnievc said:

Doesn’t that take away their free will?

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Well, I wouldn't say it goes so far as to take away their free will unless it's an overwhelming desire. Supposedly the desire could have been resisted.

Larnievc said:

Giving someone a desire to disobey seems to be setting Eve up for a fall.

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Yep. And if you're omniscient you know that's exactly what you're doing.

Moral Orel said:

Yep. And if you're omniscient you know that's exactly what you're doing.

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But that would cause all of humanity to be in danger of goi g to Hell. Why would God do that?

Larnievc said:

But his subjective experience during all of his trials would have been extremely distressing. How exactly does torment make one a better person?

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"Torment"/punishment does nothing for the person experiencing the punishment. but it can help those still willing to possible accept God's charity to accept God's charity. It did nothing for Christ to be tortured, humiliated and cruelly murdered, but it helped willing individuals see how bad their sins are and how much Love God has for them by seeing to their fair/just discipline.
I do not believe in eternal punishment for sins (eternal hell), but eventual annihilations. That is another subject.

Tinker Grey said:

The Bible doesn't say that. This is eisegesis.

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This takes a lengthy study of Job, but just because the Bible does not say something specifically does not mean we cannot figure some things out from a good study. Job reveled a misunderstand he had of God, which God will jump in and address.

Tree of Life said:

In all that God does, he does no one any wrong. God does send calamity into our lives and calamity is not good. But God is good and he does no wrong when he sends calamity into our lives.

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Euthephro dilemma anyone?

Larnievc said:

That’s the bit I don’t get. As a being of infinite power he could manage all that without needing to create a being with the sole intention of torturing him to death and then help you fulfil your Earthly objective.

Why not just not torture his son to death and then help you achieve your Earthly objective?

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That is an excellent question with a very lengthy answer to explain the atonement process.

Also, I know there is lots of miss information and misunderstanding about the atonement process which would add to your: “the bit I don’t get”. Christianity in general has only weak “theories” of atonement, all with lots of problems and issues, I do not like any of them, so I developed my own.

Everything goes back to man’s objective while here on earth, so I need to start there:

If there is this eternal intelligence it would be at the epitome of the best it could be and not in the process of improvement. It would be the ultimate bad or good but not somewhere in-between. Why be bad when He can be good just as easily? The ultimate “good” would be what is called Godly type Love (to be defined later) and is a totally unselfish type Love. Since this God would be able to direct our thinking, why would He have us think of him as being totally bad, when He could make us think bad was good and thus, He would be worthy of praise? If God were bad and we praise a “Good God” than we are not praising Him.



The difference and issues begin with misunderstanding of the objective. Most Christians like: Man’s objective is to bring glory to God” and have scripture references to support that objective, but a person can take any commandment of God given in scripture and have Biblical support for call that command: “Man’s objective”. We are certainly commanded to do that command, so why is it not man’s objective?

There are the two superior commands which all other commands are subordinate to and combined would be like: “Love God (and secondly others) with all your heart, soul, mind, and energy.” That appears to be man’s “Mission Statement”. The huge problem with fulfilling that “Mission Statement” is the fact that the “Love” needed would have to be huge, way beyond anything man could develop, learn, deserve, earn, pay back, be instinctive to man, or somehow just be forced upon humans.

Thus the reason you have free will, is because it is required for you to complete your earthly objective.

This messed up world which includes satan roaming around is not here for your pleasure, but to help you become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest gift being having a Love like His.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.


God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force [Love] in all universes, since that force [Love] compels even God to do all He does) and thus we become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time.

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), like create another Christ, since Christ has always existed, the big impossibility for us is; create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also, if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type Love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)

This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them, burden them, to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

Sin has purpose in helping willing humans in fulfilling their objective. God does not like it but allows it.

Very briefly going back to Christ going to the cross:

1. We can see how hugely significant sin really is to God.

2. We can see how unbelievably God’s Love is in forgiving us of our sins which put Jesus on the cross.

3. The only fair/just way for us to be “disciplined” (discipline being extremely valuable to us) for our sins is for us to experience the crucifixion ourselves which Christ going to the cross provides since we can empathetically be crucified with Christ (disciplined for our sins).