Problem of Evil?

[Tree of Life]

We are entering into a new section on the Problem of Evil. I really don't think that the Problem of Evil poses a serious challenge to Christian faith but I'd love to discuss it here. If you think that the Problem of Evil is somehow a serious challenge to Christianity, how would you state the problem and why do you think it's a challenge?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

mn

 

[Tree of Life]

At the time when the church should be retreating from 'the world' ("come out of her, my people!) it is cozying up to the world through the acceptance of ungodly worldly practices, political correctness, wokeness, involvement in politics, etc. The visible church is busy putting a comfortable saddle on the beast. Not good.

I think you've misunderstood. This is the Christian Apologetics section and the "Problem of Evil" is a formal philosophical problem posed against the Christian faith.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I think you've misunderstood. This is the Christian Apologetics section and the "Problem of Evil" is a formal philosophical problem posed against the Christian faith.

Sorry. I'll delete my post.

 

[cloudyday2]

@Tree of Life , I'm surprised that you don't think the problem of evil is a problem. Which of the responses in this Wikipedia link matches your thinking?
Problem of evil - Wikipedia

 

[cvanwey]

We are entering into a new section on the Problem of Evil. I really don't think that the Problem of Evil poses a serious challenge to Christian faith but I'd love to discuss it here. If you think that the Problem of Evil is somehow a serious challenge to Christianity, how would you state the problem and why do you think it's a challenge?

If you do not find this topic a real challenge, then you might have to also concede that morals are relative and subjective. Are morals relative and subjective?

 

[zippy2006]

Here are two formulations:

1. There exist instances of intense suffering which an omnipotent, omniscient being could have prevented without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse.
   
2. An omniscient, wholly good being would prevent the occurrence of any intense suffering it could, unless it could not do so without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse.
3. Therefore there does not exist an omnipotent, omniscient, wholly good being.
   
   (William Rowe, "The Problem of Evil and Some Varieties of Atheism")

Peter van Inwagen expands on Rowe's idea in the form of some "mutilation" that leaves a person severely impaired:

1. If the Mutilation had not occurred, if it had been, so to speak, simply left out of the world, the world would be no worse than it is. (It would seem, in fact, that the world would be significantly better if the Mutilation had been left out of it, but my argument doesn't require that premise.)
2. The Mutilation in fact occurred (and was a horror).
   
3. If a morally perfect creator could have left a certain horror out of the world he created, and if the world he created would have been no worse if that horror had been left out of it than it would have been if it had included that horror, then the morally perfect creator would have left the horror out of the world he created-or at any rate he would have left it out if he had been able to.
4. If an omnipotent being created the world, he was able to leave the Mutilation out of the world (and was able to do so in a way that would have left the world otherwise much as it is).
5. There is, therefore, no omnipotent and morally perfect creator.
   
   (Peter van Inwagen, The Problem of Evil)

 

[Gene2memE]

We are entering into a new section on the Problem of Evil. I really don't think that the Problem of Evil poses a serious challenge to Christian faith but I'd love to discuss it here. If you think that the Problem of Evil is somehow a serious challenge to Christianity, how would you state the problem and why do you think it's a challenge?

Not a serious challenge to Christianity faith per se, but definitely a problem to notions that God possesses either omnibenevolence or omnipotence (also omniscience, depending on the formulation).

Defenses of the critique that assume the tri/quad omni God usually end up falling into variations of the omnipotence paradox.

There are various 'theologically sophisticated' defenses of it - Plantiga's free will defense probably being the most popular (although I feel it falls apart with some fairly simple counter examples), and modified versions of the 'Maximally X God' of Anslem (the Ontological Argument), although these I feel just push the problem down a step in the chain and don't actually resolve any of the underlying problems.

So, problem of evil is only a problem if you thing God is morally perfect, all knowing and all powerful.

 

[cvanwey]

So, problem of evil is only a problem if you thing God is morally perfect, all knowing and all powerful.

I would agree that the following must be assumed, as quoted above, that He is tri-omni (i.e.)

"Epicurus" - "God either wishes to take away evils, and is unable; or He is able, and is unwilling; or He is neither willing nor able, or He is both willing and able.”

It also seems necessary to distinguish if 'morals' are subjective, objective, and/or absolute? (i.e.)

Define a specific 'moral' which one deems right/wrong, and why?

I myself state morals are subjective. Hence, the 'problem of evil' may not be a problem, or truly apply for me Meaning, I may find problems, but I cannot ground them in 'fact'. Not even if God exists.

But to get back to @Tree of Life , this is not a reason people come to, or away from Jesus It's merely a side-conversation.... A talking point.

 

[SigurdReginson]

 

[Jeshu]

How can the problem of evil any longer be a problem when God, in Jesus, overcame evil and its ultimate outcome by His life and His death on the cross? His resurrection is the proof of His Victory!

 

[Gene2memE]

How can the problem of evil any longer be a problem when God, in Jesus, overcame evil and its ultimate outcome by His life and His death on the cross? His resurrection is the proof of His Victory!

Even if you grant the claims that "Jesus, overcame evil and its ultimate outcome by His life and His death on the cross", and that the resurrection occurred, it doesn't solve the problem of evil.

Evil clearly still exists in the world we inhabit. That matters, if you think God is omnibenevolent and/or omnipotent.

 

[Jeshu]

Even if you grant the claims that "Jesus, overcame evil and its ultimate outcome by His life and His death on the cross", and that the resurrection occurred, it doesn't solve the problem of evil.

Evil clearly still exists in the world we inhabit. That matters, if you think God is omnibenevolent and/or omnipotent.

Evil is on its way out while God's glory will be revealed. God is absorbing it through us. Once all possible evil has been He can nicely round it up and do away with it forever. As we know He will. Especially because He is omni benevolent and omnipotent anyone, anywhere, can call upon Him to be saved from evil and escape its clutches.

 

[Gene2memE]

Evil is on its way out while God's glory will be revealed. God is absorbing it through us. Once all possible evil has been He can nicely round it up and do away with it forever. As we know He will. Especially because He is omni benevolent and omnipotent anyone, anywhere, can call upon Him to be saved from evil and escape its clutches.

Your own statements here are totally incompatible with the actions of a deity that is either omnibenevolent or omnipotent.

If God is omnibenevolent, why would it allow evil acts to occur in the present (even if it was going to disappear at some unspecified future date)?

If God is omnipotent, why cant it simply get the evil out or rounded up immediately? Why is it necessary to proceed through an interval of evil (that, as far as we can tell, has lasted for all of human history)?


Here's a question: Is there evil in heaven?

 

[Jeshu]

If God is omnibenevolent, why would it allow evil acts to occur in the present (even if it was going to disappear at some unspecified future date)?

Evil is the responsibility of the one who brings it into being. God lovingly made all good. We the people decided to mar that, against His direct demand. To hold God responsible for someone else's decision is very unfair and very untrue!

God has shown us the Way out through Jesus Christ. He is the answer from God against all evil!

For why should God need to deal with evil the way you, who don't even grant Him existence, wants Him to deal with it? That is ludicrous!

The Fact is we can be saved from our evil by His Son Jesus and resist evil by growing life in the Holy Spirit, as He teaches, and so overcome evil as well.

All Glory to Jesus for overcoming evil!

 

[Tree of Life]

If you do not find this topic a real challenge, then you might have to also concede that morals are relative and subjective. Are morals relative and subjective?

I do believe in objective and absolute moral norms.

 

[Tree of Life]

So, problem of evil is only a problem if you thing God is morally perfect, all knowing and all powerful.

Well this is the alleged problem because orthodox Christianity believes that God is all these things.

 

[Gene2memE]

Evil is the responsibility of the one who brings it into being. God lovingly made all good. We the people decided to mar that, against His direct demand. To hold God responsible for someone else's decision is very unfair and very untrue!

For why should God need to deal with evil the way you, who don't even grant Him existence, wants Him to deal with it? That is ludicrous!

Well because the existence of evil negates the concept of an the tri/quad omni God.

Given that you've stated evil exists, you're faced with some options:

God allows evil to exist, and thus isn't omnibenevolent
God cant stop evil from existing, and thus isn't omnipotent
God is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, but can't know when evil occurs (to stop it) and thus isn't omniscient or omnipresent

 

[Gene2memE]

Well this is the alleged problem because orthodox Christianity believes that God is all these things.

I know, but consider this: should they?

I think that any reading of the Bible - which purports to revelation of the character of God - allows for an omniscient, omnipotent, ominbenevolent and omnipresent deity.

 

[cvanwey]

I do believe in objective and absolute moral norms.

Can you prove an objective/absolute 'moral'? If yes, how would you go about doing so?