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Jamza said:Actually, input - processing - output doesn't work on a quantum level, you have fluctuations; and particles have multiple histories; neither can physics ultimately determine what will happen; due to chaos theory and the uncertainty principle. If even the physical universe is founded on such uncertainty; why can't this uncertainty be interpreted as free will when we scale it up to human behaviour?
TheGMan said:Because such fluctuations are random. It would be like tossing a coin to decide whether you want strawberry ice cream or chocolate ice cream. It doesn't quite add up to our intuitive notion of freedom.
Opethian said:There is no such thing as free will.
There is only Input -> Processing -> Output
Our body does the processing, and the result is only dependant on our body and the input. Souls are a nice imagination, but they don't exist. Therefore, there is no true evil or good, there's only people that were born with the right genes in the right environment, and people that were born with the wrong genes in the wrong environment.
Try as I might, I cannot seem to consider myself a "mere" animal.skinner said:So, you don't believe in evil? Read the newspaper lately?
Really, I feel sorry for you, but given the culture we exist in, I'm not surprised that there are so many who veiw themselves as merely animals walking upright.
Uh huh. When I stopped believing I was a special creation of God, stuff just quit happening around me.Must make for a boring existence, though.
Jamza said:Well neither do you experience those fluctuations on such a large scale; all I'm saying is that if an amount of uncertainty is exhibited in science when the traditional thinking was that everything was predictable; why must we assume free will can't exist?
TeddyKGB said:I don't think it presupposes anything. Any means of dealing with evil is necessarily available to an omnipotent being. Creating a less evil world in the first place, for example.
TeddyKGB said:Try as I might, I cannot seem to consider myself a "mere" animal..
TeddyKGB said:Uh huh. When I stopped believing I was a special creation of God, stuff just quit happening around me.
Sorry to tell you, but even the actions of a serial killer are already set from the moment he is conceived, since the environment he will grow up in is already set, his genetic traits are set, and the path of his life is set. Same for someone who spends his entire life helping others and not caring about himself. You can't consider people like that "evil" or "good", you can only say that the first was born with an unlucky set of genes under unlucky circumstances, and the second with a good set of genes under good circumstances. This has nothing to do with "free will", since there is no such thing. I feel sorry for you, that you lack the capacity to understand this, or the willpower to break free from your nice world where you think you actually did something to achieve the way you are, but in reality, it isn't true. You are just a piece of well-organised dead material, that is capable of communicating with its environment by complex reactions going on in the material it is made of. There's no such thing as a soul, even though it would of course be nice if there were, but there's not. And I am merely an animal with a big brain walking upright, as are you, as is everyone on this planet. Don't be so vain as to say we are special and other organisms aren't. We're all special, but none of us have free will, none of us have souls, we're all just highly organised matter. Get over it...So, you don't believe in evil? Read the newspaper lately?
Really, I feel sorry for you, but given the culture we exist in, I'm not surprised that there are so many who veiw themselves as merely animals walking upright.
Must make for a boring existence, though.
The soul is evident. The body is a reflection or portion of the soul, in whose inlets are the fives senses. It is the form of the innerself--the self is the soul. Your essence, like the essence of water is water; and the essence of you is your soul, your self of being.
An essence cannot be created nor destroyed--it was, is--always meant to be.
To be or not to be--that is the question. Am I? I think; therefore I am.
jinkazama said:5. Natural evils?- you have explain this to me?
Any one care to answer number 5
Jamza said:To reduce human behavior to something so determined and cold is not very helpful. By your logic even secular things like creative beauty is just another event. I don't think you should feel sorry for spiritual people; I think they're ideologies and values are much more fulfilling than determinism.
It is helpful, because it is the only thing that is real. Obviously, it's not as fun as to think that there are in fact spiritual things and gods and souls and whatnot. But everything we know until now leads to my argument. All cases of so called spiritual events or processes that have been examined up till now have been proven to have a perfectly reasonable scientific explanation. I'm not saying a despot is a good person, I'm only saying that there is no sort of free will that caused him to become what he is. It also doesn't mean that you shouldn't enjoy things that seem special to you because of chemical reactions in your body. Just because you understand how they function, doesn't mean that you can't enjoy them anymore.Nothing is as predictable as that; and even if it were, you could hardly measure it all. All that philosophy seems to suggest is:
1. There are no wrongs. There are just events that happen because of causality.
2. There is no morality. By your logic, a despot is actually a decent person, he or she is controlling lots of other people and providing wealth for him/herself. Well done macro-molecules!
3. No one is suggesting a 'soul' is something atomic, or anything to do with natural laws; of course there will never be proof or disprove of a soul.
To reduce human behavior to something so determined and cold is not very helpful. By your logic even secular things like creative beauty is just another event. I don't think you should feel sorry for spiritual people; I think they're ideologies and values are much more fulfilling than determinism.
Make the two into one: one body and soul.
Opethian said:Sorry to tell you, but even the actions of a serial killer are already set from the moment he is conceived, since the environment he will grow up in is already set, his genetic traits are set, and the path of his life is set. Same for someone who spends his entire life helping others and not caring about himself. You can't consider people like that "evil" or "good", you can only say that the first was born with an unlucky set of genes under unlucky circumstances, and the second with a good set of genes under good circumstances. This has nothing to do with "free will", since there is no such thing. I feel sorry for you, that you lack the capacity to understand this, or the willpower to break free from your nice world where you think you actually did something to achieve the way you are, but in reality, it isn't true....
Opethian said:You are just a piece of well-organised dead material, that is capable of communicating with its environment by complex reactions going on in the material it is made of. There's no such thing as a soul, even though it would of course be nice if there were, but there's not. And I am merely an animal with a big brain walking upright, as are you, as is everyone on this planet. Don't be so vain as to say we are special and other organisms aren't. We're all special, but none of us have free will, none of us have souls, we're all just highly organised matter. Get over it...
You mean, how can God make something powerful enough to object to and defeat the intests of the devine omnipotence?Jamza said:I was just wondering what Christians here thought about it. How can evil/suffering exist when God is both all powerful-and all-loving?
Wrong. When I get up in the morning, I am faced with a choice. I can do nothing productive and earn the results. (nothing) Or I can choose to do my chosen work and reap the satisfaction and the means to feed my family. This is not set in my genes, it's free will.
Maybe if I believed the evolution garbage that is taught in our colleges I could begin to understand why you think as you do. I guess I was "lucky" in that I grew up in a generation who was taught that if you want to acheive something, it requires effort. Each and every one of us has the genes that could create a serial killer or a saint. It is simply a matter of the choices that we make every day that determines which we will become.
Break free from my nice world? To find what? A meaningless existance, where everything is relivative and truth does not exist? No thanks.
If we are nothing but animals, what makes us special, as you say? How do you know there is no such thing as a soul? Because that is what you were taught? Have you considered that you may have been decieved and that you really are in a proving ground that will determine where you will spend eternity? Think about that for awhile...does the idea of a life with purpose resonate somewhere in your heart? What could you become if you let yourself believe? You are not an animal, you have purpose for being and a destiny to discover that is yours alone. Life is not a accident. It's the beginning of a grand adventure....
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