Probability and Creation

[SamuelTP1977]

Here is a big reason why I am not an atheist. It doesn't make sense to me in my own mind. To go from the big bang to current time over some 14 billion years, means a lot of events had to take place and work out in our favor to bring us here, even if they were all natural processes. The kind of odds that would have to play out for that to happen is so astronomical that I feel we are not made to know if we have an immortal soul, or if Jesus did come back from the dead. We just do not have religious knowledge. Just think about those odds, it is something like winning a crazy bet, like where the odds are one out of a number with one billion zeroes. It can happen, but it is really unlikely.

So what do you think?

 

[Tinker Grey]

To go from the big bang to current time over some 14 billion years, means a lot of events
had to take place and work out in our favor to bring us here, even if they were all natural processes.

And if those events hadn't occured, we wouldn't be here. So?

So what do you think?

Arguments from incredulity are not generally received favorably in a philosophy forum.

 

[KWCrazy]

In the beginning there was nothing. Because there was nothing, there was no energy to generate heat, leaving us with absolute zero. We know scientifically that with absolute zero nothing happens, so since the universe could not rise from nothingness there is still nothing and we don't exist. We know that matter or energy cannot be created only changed in formed, so beginning with that nothingness nothing could arise to disturb it's perpetual existence of non-existence. In a billion, trillion years nothing would change; nothing would shift; nothing would arise from nothingness. We know that there had to be nothingness because we understand the physical properties of the universe mean that everything is in a constant state of deterioration; meaning that from its original state the universe itself is winding down. The stars are burning out. There may be some re-birth from the dying out of stars but in the end the universe will dissolve into a more or less uniform field of useless energy. These are the laws that we understand and know to be true. So how did we get here?

There are many theories of origination, all of which can be disproved by a 7th grade science book. Each gets more ridiculous than the last. The only scientifically viable theory is that external energy interjected itself into the void which sparked the creation of the universe. We call that the Creator. Others call it anything but. However, without the interjection of external energy a field of zero energy remains unchanged in perpetuity. We are, in fact, here, so some force outside of our universe instigated the creation of our universe. Scientists know this, they are just reluctant to admit that we had an outside Creator. they will proclaim that the fact they don't know all the answers doesn't mean they don't know any answers, but the fact remains that in the absence of a Creator there is no explanation for the origination of matter. The autocreation of everything from nothing is a logical absurdity.

 

[UndercoverElephant]

Here's how something comes from nothing:

0 = 1 + -1

In other words, we've misunderstood what nothingness is. The whole of existence adds up to nothing. All of the matter and energy (which are interchangeable), exactly balance out all of the potential gravitational energy of everything being attracted to everything else. The universe is the Ultimate Free Lunch.

Just my opinion...

NB: another way of putting this is that there never was nothing. Instead, there was always and always will be an infinite potential that could become something and anti-something in equal measure.

 

[KWCrazy]

Here's how something comes from nothing:

0 = 1 + -1

Where did the one come from?
Where did the force that split -1 from 0 and resulted in the 1 come from?
Once -1 and 1 = 0, what force can make them become -1 billion and +1 billion?
I understand the attempt to re-define absolute zero. All explanations attempt to re-define insurmountable obstacles. However, redefinition does not make them accurate.

The definition of absolute zero is not the sum of all energy but the absence of all energy. Matter and anti-matter may exist, but the still require the forceful redirection of energy which is not possible in the absence of energy. There are NO scientifically valid theories for origination. Origination is impossible.

 

[True Scotsman]

Here is a big reason why I am not an atheist. It doesn't make sense to me in my own mind. To go from the big bang to current time over some 14 billion years, means a lot of events had to take place and work out in our favor to bring us here, even if they were all natural processes. The kind of odds that would have to play out for that to happen is so astronomical that I feel we are not made to know if we have an immortal soul, or if Jesus did come back from the dead. We just do not have religious knowledge. Just think about those odds, it is something like winning a crazy bet, like where the odds are one out of a number with one billion zeroes. It can happen, but it is really unlikely.

So what do you think?

I think that after something has already happened, it is silly to try and calculate the odds of it happening. If we are here then the conditions are necessarily right for our existence. Incredibly improbable things happen all the time and something need not be probable to happen only possible. We know that life and intelligent life is possible. We observe it.

 

[UndercoverElephant]

Where did the one come from?

Same place the -1 came from.

Where did the force that split -1 from 0 and resulted in the 1 come from?

It was always there as potential within the 0.

I understand the attempt to re-define absolute zero. All explanations attempt to re-define insurmountable obstacles. However, redefinition does not make them accurate.

The definition of absolute zero is not the sum of all energy but the absence of all energy. Matter and anti-matter may exist, but the still require the forceful redirection of energy which is not possible in the absence of energy. There are NO scientifically valid theories for origination. Origination is impossible.

This isn't science. It's some sort of metaphysics, with a bit of philosophy of mathematics thrown in.

I'm basically claiming that what we think of as "nothing" or "zero" is wrong. There's not such thing as "nothingness" as we concieve it, and instead it is more like "pure infinity". Zero is not nothing; it's everything. At which point, the problem of origination ceases to exist.

There was no beginning of existence. Existence is eternal.

 

[KWCrazy]

I'm basically claiming that what we think of as "nothing" or "zero" is wrong. There's not such thing as "nothingness" as we concieve it, and instead it is more like "pure infinity".

Infinity would be the totality of everything, which would be the antithesis of zero.

Zero is not nothing; it's everything.

So if you have zero in your checking account you have the accumulated wealth of the universe?
NOW I know who taught my wife how to balance a checkbook. Gee, thanks.

There was no beginning of existence. Existence is eternal.

I think the second law of thermodynamics would demonstrate that nothing is eternal; that everything which exists now will someday no longer exists. The reality is that the physical world is simply a construct used to temporarily house man while he decides whether to accept or reject his Creator. The reality is that existence is transitional; that we are here one day and gone the next; processed out of this physical world to the eternal world of our supernatural Creator. The truth of our existence lies not in the universe but rather with the Creator of the universe.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Here is a big reason why I am not an atheist. It doesn't make sense to me in my own mind.

Male seahorses giving birth doesn't make a lick of sense to me in my mind. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

To go from the big bang to current time over some 14 billion years, means a lot of events had to take place and work out in our favor to bring us here, even if they were all natural processes.

Um well it wouldn't be that much. All life needs to do is start and adapt. Everything after that "works in our favor"

The kind of odds that would have to play out for that to happen is so astronomical

There are no odds. I know what you're saying but there are no odds. Because life just wasn't the intent of anything it just happened.

It can happen, but it is really unlikely.

And it did.

 

[UndercoverElephant]

Infinity would be the totality of everything, which would be the antithesis of zero.

Well, that's what we normally think. I'm suggesting we've got this wrong - completely back to front and upside down, if you like. Not only is nothing not nothing, but it's the absolute opposite of nothing.

I think the second law of thermodynamics would demonstrate that nothing is eternal

And if you think about my previous reply....?

"Nothing [or rather, what we think of nothing, but is the opposite] is eternal" is precisely what I am suggesting. :-D

 

[Paradoxum]

Here is a big reason why I am not an atheist. It doesn't make sense to me in my own mind. To go from the big bang to current time over some 14 billion years, means a lot of events had to take place and work out in our favor to bring us here, even if they were all natural processes. The kind of odds that would have to play out for that to happen is so astronomical that I feel we are not made to know if we have an immortal soul, or if Jesus did come back from the dead. We just do not have religious knowledge. Just think about those odds, it is something like winning a crazy bet, like where the odds are one out of a number with one billion zeroes. It can happen, but it is really unlikely.

So what do you think?

Consider this:

Think how unlikely it is that you in particular were born where you were. If there were any tiny change in history, someone else, rather than you, could have been born to your parents. Or your parents could just not have existed due to changes.

Everything that ever happens is extremely unlikely, if you consider that everything could have been different with small changes in history. It doesn't mean there's a divine hand though. It's just how things turned out.

If earth didn't end up with humans, another planet might have 'grown' an intelligent species.

 

[True Scotsman]

Consider this:

Think how unlikely it is that you in particular were born where you were. If there were any tiny change in history, someone else, rather than you, could have been born to your parents. Or your parents could just not have existed due to changes.

Everything that ever happens is extremely unlikely, if you consider that everything could have been different with small changes in history. It doesn't mean there's a divine hand though. It's just how things turned out.

If earth didn't end up with humans, another planet might have 'grown' an intelligent species.

Indeed. Think about what the odds were that all of your ancestors going back to the first Humans would live long enough to reproduce. Not one of them died in childbirth or disease or was eaten by a saber toothed tiger. Its staggering to think about but now that you are here you would have to say the odds were always 100% that they would.

 

[Wryetui]

Consider this:

Think how unlikely it is that you in particular were born where you were. If there were any tiny change in history, someone else, rather than you, could have been born to your parents. Or your parents could just not have existed due to changes.

Everything that ever happens is extremely unlikely, if you consider that everything could have been different with small changes in history. It doesn't mean there's a divine hand though. It's just how things turned out.

If earth didn't end up with humans, another planet might have 'grown' an intelligent species.

Yes, because intelligent species grow out of nowhere.

 

[Paradoxum]

Indeed. Think about what the odds were that all of your ancestors going back to the first Humans would live long enough to reproduce. Not one of them died in childbirth or disease or was eaten by a saber toothed tiger. Its staggering to think about but now that you are here you would have to say the odds were always 100% that they would.

Yup

Yes, because intelligent species grow out of nowhere.

Obviously not. Do you think I meant they pop out of no where like magic?

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Yes, because intelligent species grow out of nowhere.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Here is a big reason why I am not an atheist. It doesn't make sense to me in my own mind.

Hey! That's the same reason I'm not a theist. It makes no sense to me. Go figure!

To go from the big bang to current time over some 14 billion years, means a lot of events had to take place and work out in our favor to bring us here, even if they were all natural processes. The kind of odds that would have to play out for that to happen is so astronomical that I feel we are not made to know if we have an immortal soul, or if Jesus did come back from the dead. We just do not have religious knowledge. Just think about those odds, it is something like winning a crazy bet, like where the odds are one out of a number with one billion zeroes. It can happen, but it is really unlikely.

I don't know what the odds are but I'm guessing you don't either. Seeing that the universe does exist and it does function under natural processes we can say the odds of it forming or coming into existence through natural processes are very high. What reason would I have to assume it was something supernatural that caused it?

So what do you think?

I think I have no reason to believe there is a magical, universe-creating being that exists that I cannot see or hear or detect in any verifiable way.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Here is a big reason why I am not an atheist. It doesn't make sense to me in my own mind. To go from the big bang to current time over some 14 billion years, means a lot of events had to take place and work out in our favor to bring us here, even if they were all natural processes. The kind of odds that would have to play out for that to happen is so astronomical that I feel we are not made to know if we have an immortal soul, or if Jesus did come back from the dead. We just do not have religious knowledge. Just think about those odds, it is something like winning a crazy bet, like where the odds are one out of a number with one billion zeroes. It can happen, but it is really unlikely.


So what do you think?

First its good youre thinking!

I dont really go for that "anthropic principle" , theres the "multiverse" saying there are near infinite universes, and we just in a remarkable one. Thats the secular alternative. But for me the tapestry looks better within the faithful side.

I believe in God (at the moment) because all our models can be reinterpreted. Like the matrix is a version ioif scientific realism, but that is a dream, which in fact is in a real mind, which is a hollogram or wwhetever, ad infinitum with model after model. "God" I see as the transcendent, as the bible says IIRC where the soul finds rest.

So I have: W (world) + M (models) + G (god).


"...and there is nothing in existence comparable unto Him..."

 

[SamuelTP1977]

I believe what makes sense to someone in their own mind cannot be chosen voluntarily, a theist like faith of someone cannot be helped.

Also with the big bang theory, to me it sounds like it got created by a powerful supreme being. Like it says in the bible, God said "let there be light" and boom it got created. I know I don't know this, but it just sounds like that is what happened.

Also if we are a product of merely natural processes, I still feel super lucky even if you claim it is just like that. Who would think some 4 billion years ago, there would be this planet with water and the sun would cook up a DNA molecule, and start replicating to be our one and only first common ancestor, now that is getting lucky, let me tell you.

Hang in there and I pray for you.

 

[paulm50]

Here is a big reason why I am not an atheist. It doesn't make sense to me in my own mind. To go from the big bang to current time over some 14 billion years, means a lot of events had to take place and work out in our favor to bring us here, even if they were all natural processes. The kind of odds that would have to play out for that to happen is so astronomical that I feel we are not made to know if we have an immortal soul, or if Jesus did come back from the dead. We just do not have religious knowledge. Just think about those odds, it is something like winning a crazy bet, like where the odds are one out of a number with one billion zeroes. It can happen, but it is really unlikely.

So what do you think?

Look at the number of stars, then planets. Yes the odds are long, still possible. There's evidence of life elsewhere in the Universe, just not intelligent life.

If an Asteroid had not hit the Earth, mammals wouldn't of gained a foot hold. If a branch of the Ape family hadn't of of developed a larger brain, it wouldn't of learned to use tools. And we wouldn't have all the evidence of the failed Homo species, including Homo Erectus, Neanderthals. The Human Tree. Something the bible is very quiet on. We weren't made unique, we're an evolution from many attempts. If there is a god, he had to practice a lot.

 

[paulm50]

First its good youre thinking!

I dont really go for that "anthropic principle" , theres the "multiverse" saying there are near infinite universes, and we just in a remarkable one. Thats the secular alternative. But for me the tapestry looks better within the faithful side.

I believe in God (at the moment) because all our models can be reinterpreted. Like the matrix is a version ioif scientific realism, but that is a dream, which in fact is in a real mind, which is a hollogram or wwhetever, ad infinitum with model after model. "God" I see as the transcendent, as the bible says IIRC where the soul finds rest.

So I have: W (world) + M (models) + G (god).


"...and there is nothing in existence comparable unto Him..."

So why did he get so many creatures so wrong?

The evidence of evolution has an explanation for extinction. The bible doesn't, because it's the writing of men from very recent times. Compared to the billions of years there's been life on the Earth. Timeline: The evolution of life. All from evidence and continually growing.

The Human Tree, is very recent. And very hit and miss. Did a superior being come to Earth and instil us with a larger brain, or did the clever one's reproduce and over 500,000 develop a bigger brain. Like we breed animals to make them stronger, dogs to make them friendlier, hostile, good runners, good sniffers. Etc.

Evidence of how evolution works is all around us, and easier to accept.