Pro-Palestinian supporters at Columbia University confront Jews ‘to push them out of camp’

Vanellus

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Nope, it's Shani Louk. But even if you could get the facts straight, it's not an argument.
Yes because supporters of Israel in this forum can't handle the concept of asymmetry. They support Israel and are opposed to Hamas. They then assume that if someone else criticises Israel over the little matter of c35,000 deaths then they must be supporters of Hamas. This is a completely false idea but one they cling onto despite the fact that it has no basis in logic, and has no evidence from posts in this forum. Sad really sad that people here refuse to believe what they have been told clearly again and again by other people in this forum.
 
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ralliann

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While most Palestinians still oppose a two-state solution, support for it has been increasing in recent months, especially in Gaza, where the majority now approves of the idea.

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The UN passed a resolution just today that recognizes the State of Palestine as being qualified for membership in the United Nations. While it's mostly symbolic, this move will likely increase support from Palestinians for a two-state solution. It will be interesting to see how the next polls go. Regardless of how much support a two-state solution has from either the Palestinians or the Israelis, it's not going to happen until Israel’s far-right government is voted out and Hamas no longer has a leadership role in Gaza. They both have to go.
How ridiculous as they still hold hostages for pity sake....
Rah Rah for kidnappers and rapists, baby killers.
 
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civilwarbuff

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I recognise nonsense - you write a lot of that. I also recognise backtracking and moving the goalposts - you do that as well.
But not irony? NP, I will try not to strain your talents in the future.
 
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civilwarbuff

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Btw what is the military use for baby powder?
I dunno.....maybe Mr. Hamas likes it when Mrs. Hamas smells like that child bride she was when he married her.
Btw what is the military use for murdering over 1200 Israeli citizens on Oct. 12?
 
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Vanellus

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I dunno.....maybe Mr. Hamas likes it when Mrs. Hamas smells like that child bride she was when he married her.
More nonsense that you will try to disguise as "irony". There was wheat flour on the truck as well - y'know for making bread to eat.
Btw what is the military use for murdering over 1200 Israeli citizens on Oct. 12?
What about the far greater number of Palestinian children that have been murdered by Israel (and consistently more since 1948) - or maybe you think their lives are worth less than Israeli lives?
 
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civilwarbuff

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What about the far greater number of Palestinian children that have been murdered by Israel (and consistently more since 1948) - or maybe you think their lives are worth less than Israeli lives?
I understand; can't answer the question without appearing like a hamas supporter.
Of course if hamas did not use people (that includes children in case you didn't know) as human shields maybe there would be far fewer dead gazans.
 
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Vanellus

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I understand; can't answer the question without appearing like a hamas supporter.
Of course if hamas did not use people (that includes children in case you didn't know) as human shields maybe there would be far fewer dead gazans.
A pathetic attempt to dodge the question about c35,000 lives killed by Israel. This shows the poverty of your viewpoint.
 
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civilwarbuff

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A pathetic attempt to dodge the question about c35,000 lives killed by Israel. This shows the poverty of your viewpoint.
As I have said here many time before: The gazans can stop this war anytime they want simply by turning on hamas and helping the IDF identify the terrorists and their hidey-hole entrances. Instead the gazans take the cowardly way out and use their women and children as shields and then scream about how terrible Israel is to them. I have no sympathy for them; they are getting everything they deserve.....in spades.
 
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Lukaris

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Hamas is like a crime syndicate that has much of the general public around it understandably intimidated. There is probably not much the Palestinians could do to remove Hamas.

The Nazis really only had a plurality until the Weimar Republic was overthrown. Then it was almost too late to get rid of them.
 
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stevevw

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It's the Israeli government that controls access to the Temple Mount and prevents non-Muslims from praying there. Its for both security and religious reasons.
Actually I said Jews were not allowed to pray at the Temple Mount. Yes the Isreali government have denied their own people to pray at the Temple mount so as to keep the peace. They were willing to sacrifice their own rights for the sake of keeping the peace. I don't think the Muslims would even entertain such ideas of compromise especially to the Jews.

Jewish visitors are allowed to visit the Temple Mount during certain times, but are not permitted to pray there, in order to avoid provoking interreligious conflict.
Islam teaches that Muhammad, is currently in al Barzakh waiting on the day of ressurection.

“Verily, you [Muhammad] will certainly die, and they will die too.” (Az-Zumar:30)

“Barzakh is the grave. Its duration commences from the time of death until the Day of Judgement.” (al-Kāfi)
Ok so what about Christ. Is Christ also in the grave awaiting the day of judgement or does Islam teach that Christ sits with the Father and is the Judge of all those waiting in the graves including Muhummad.
Unlike Muhammad, Islam teaches that God raised Jesus up to heaven, body and soul, and until now he is still alive in the presence of God,
In the presence of God like Elijah but not seated at the right hand of God as God Himself. They relegate Christ as another prophet and not as God Himself.

I am not sure what you mean by "unlike Muhammad. Isn't the Koran and Islam inspired by Muhammad.
and he will return again on judgment day, where he will defeat the anti-Christ, die, and be raised up.
Yes raised up like everyone else including the great Phophets. But Christ has already been raised up when he was raised from the dead and will not only defeat the antichrist but will be the Judge of all.

This is the deception that Islam have conjured. They give Christ some special status as an ordinary man but not as God and switch the status from God to Holy man as a Prophet like the other Prophests. But then thats really no different to atheists admitting there was a great prophet and religious teacher in a man called Christ while denying His Godly status.
And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him - they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him. (Qur’an 4:157)
Of course they are going to say this. The aim is to denounce Jesus status as the Son of God who was raised from the dead, to defeat death and sin. This is the core of Christian belief and central to Gods promise and prophesy to send a saviour, Messiah from the line of Kind David who would be slaughtered like a lamb in sacrifice but would then rise again 3 days later.

By denying this status they have to also create a narrative that Christ was not killed. Otherwise if He was killed he could not be taken up to Heaven as the Koran says. If He was killed and then rose again this would confirm His status as Christians have witnessed at that time.

In other words they are not only denying Christs status they also have to deny the New Testament and Gospels as liars and frauds. That is why many islamist as passionately against acknowledging Christs status as its a direct threat to their own teachings.
When Jesus descends, his spirit and his breath will cause every unbeliever it finds to die. His breath will reach the distance of his sight, so his breath will reach the Dajjāl [the anti-Christ] at the distance of a span from the gate of Lydda. (Kitab al-fitan)

Jesus son of Mary will catch the Dajjāl after he flees from him, so when his descend reaches him, he will catch him at the eastern gate of Lydda and kill him. (Abū Umāma al-Bāhilī)

"Peace is upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the Day I get resurrected alive.” That is Jesus son of Mary; the Word of truth about which they doubt. (Qur'an 19:33-34)
Yes they acknowledge Christ but they deny the most central and powerful point about Christ. That is the problem. No amount of attributing greatness to Christ as an ordinary man (son of Mary) will substitute for denting CHrist status as (Son of God). Thats why they keep repeating the phrase "son of Mary" to create the narrative he was just son of humans and not the Son of God.
And while denying the the deity of Jesus and him being the son of God, he is described in many other ways that Muhammad is not.
Thats good because Muhammad was not an ideal person to be compared to even for a holy man. But like I said the whole point was to deny Christs status. They had no choice but to acknowledge Christ as a great man because of the influence He had on people around the world at that time and the stories of His life were still strong in the narratives told.

So they substituted this by making out Christ was great but not so great that they deny the most important part of His Status because that conflicted with their own narrative that there is only one God Allah and he has no son.

The many platitudes they give Christ don't make up for the denial of the central importance of Christ being the Son of God who died and rose again for our sins. That Christ is the Word and that all things, all Creation, everything was made through Him and nothing would exist if not through Christ.
The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, is the Messenger of God, and His Word that He conveyed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. (Qur'an 4:171)

We gave Jesus, son of Mary, profound miracles and supported him with the Holy Spirit. Had God willed, their followers would not have fought with each other, after the clear proofs had come to them. Instead, they disputed among themselves; some of them believed, and some disbelieved. (Qur’an 2:253)
And who is the Holy Spirit but Christs spirit, Gods spirit who came to us after Christs ressurrection and accended into Heaven. We can only have the Holy Spirit if Christ was crucified and rose again from the grave

John 14:15-18. “'These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. '”

And what was the Holy Spirit but the bearer and witness of Christs truth as being the way, truth and life and that no one comes to the Father except through Christ. That you must believe and accept Christ as Lord and saviour to be Born again of the spirit. Islam also denies the Trinity of God in that God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are one and the same God.

Islam is more or less plagiarizing the Bible, Christs own words and then changing it to suit the creation of their own religion.


Acts 2:33
Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.

Ironically Islam and the Koran also teaches that what the Bible says is true and that Christian should abide by what God has sent to them.

“Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God has sent down in it” (Qur'an 5:47).
and Verse 6:115 The word of your Lord is perfect, no one can change His words and He is the hearing and Knowing.
Verse (5:47) and the followers of the Injeel (Gospels) should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.

So even the Koran says Christs words are Truth and should be followed otherwise Christians are sinners. Muslims should be supporting the Bible not denouncing and changing it.
 
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stevevw

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The goalposts have flown around so much, this is Calvinball. We've moved from "Muslims" to "'Islamists' in Jerusalem and/or countries under strict sharia law".
A logical fallacy in complaining about the semantics and missing the point that whatever you want to call them Muslims or Islamists they are commiting atrosities and are denying other religions especially Christians.

Here we have a Muslim Mosque in the heart of a Jewish capital on to of the Jewish Temple Mount that bother Christians and Jews hold as central to their faith. Tell we where are the Jews and Christians in Muslim nations like Iran.

Where are their Holy places of worship they can freely worship at let along establish a Holy site in the middle of Mecca on top of the Muslims most Holy cite The Kaaba and denying MUslims the right to worship at their own Holy place.

When Christian extremists do bad stuff people don't say they were non Christians. They blame the Christians, they call them Christians. That is exactly the same for Islamist extremist who are Muslims. The difference is the KOran actually teaches to punish and kill non believers includings Christians.
Whether this is your theology, or your bizarre craving for Muslims to be 'worse', the fact is that Jews just aren't into Jesus. No soap.
But the Jews, Isrealis are a free democracy and allow the Right for people to hold and practice their beliefs and politics and Muslims don't. So its not theology but reality, Human Rights and the truths that most civilized people live by.

Go to any Muslim nation and see what happens to Christians, gays, Trans people and even non believers especially from the west. The Islamist ideology is the problem and there will always be extremist because they are simply doing what Mohummad (the last geat prophet who trumps all others) commanded them to do in dealing with the Infidels.

We now have college students calling for a Fatwah against their own nations and antisemetism against the Jews and threating our free way of life. Its this ideology we want to stop not because of theology but because its a threat against humanity. It has been brewing for some time and now around 20 to 25% of Muslims (300 to 350 million) are extremists and growing around the world including in our own nations in the west.

France is in chaos on this due to their liberal immigration policies in beings kind nation thinking they were doing the right thing. How long should we pretend this is not a problem not just for Isreal but the free world. Most Palestinians support the terror that Hamas is commiting as they are either too intimidated or indoctrinated to stand up to them.
 
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stevevw

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You mean conversion. As soon as a Jew accepts Jesus as the expected Messiah he stops being a Jew and becomes a Christian. He is not a "Jewish Christian."
But they don't have to give up their Jewish beliefs in the Torah to believe in Christ. They have to eventually believe in some Messiah who will come to establish His Kingdom on earth. Christians are only called Christians because of Christ, after His name. But Christ is the same Messiah that fullfills the Old Testament prophesies that the Jews also believe. Its not a completely alien idea in that both the Jews and Chr5istians believe in a Messiah coming to fullfill the prophesies.
Yes, they believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, was crucified and taken into heaven and will return on the last day "to judge both the quick and the dead." But they balk at the idea that God would father a child by a human woman, considering the notion blasphemous. In any case, a Muslim who accepts Jesus as God has stopped being a Muslim. He is not a "Muslim Christian."
Yeah I get what you mean and I wasn't meaning that a person can be two different religions at the same time. Thats impossible. The Mulsims actually don't believe Christ was crucified but rather He was taken up into heaven alive in physical form.

They more of less copy most of the Gospel accounts but importantly deny the most crucial parts that make Christian belief in denying that Christ was born of a virgin as Gods Son as prophesized in the Old testament, that He was God incarnate (immanueal) as the Old Testament claimed and that he was crucified and raaised 3 days later appearing to many and then accending into heaven to sit at the right side of God.

Those are pretty big ommissions which make Christianity redundant. That was exactly the aim to take an already established belief 600 years after it occurred and then ride off the back of this while injecting their own ideology interwoven so as to mix a lie with the truth to be more convincing. That is why its so sucessful.

But being a lie and twisting the truth will lead to more lies and distortions even to the point of complet detachment from reality in justifying the brutality they can impose on others in the name of Allah. In rejecting Christs status they also reject His Truth and teachings which are completely alien to Islams horrific acts espcially on children considering Christ said if anyone harms innocent children they were commiting a grave sin.
 
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JosephZ

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Ironically Islam and the Koran also teaches that what the Bible says is true and that Christian should abide by what God has sent to them.

“Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God has sent down in it” (Qur'an 5:47).
and Verse 6:115 The word of your Lord is perfect, no one can change His words and He is the hearing and Knowing.
Verse (5:47) and the followers of the Injeel (Gospels) should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.

So even the Koran says Christs words are Truth and should be followed otherwise Christians are sinners. Muslims should be supporting the Bible not denouncing and changing it.
Those verses in the Qur'an aren't referring to the Bible or the four gospels. There is only one gospel in Islam.

The injil (singular) that is recognized in the Qur'an is the gospel that was sent directly down to Jesus, not the gospels of Matthew, Luke, John, and Mark found in the Bible, as the following verse will show.

We sent in their wake our messengers and followed up with Jesus, son of Mary, and we gave him the gospel and instilled in the hearts of those who followed him compassion and mercy. (Qur'an 57:27)

The gospels of Matthew, Luke, John, and Mark found in the Bible are historical accounts of Jesus and what He said during His earthly ministry. They were written after the death and resurrection of Jesus and didn't exist during the time Jesus walked the earth; therefore, they are not the gospel (Injil) mentioned in the Qur'an that was given to Jesus while he was walking the earth.
 
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essentialsaltes

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whatever you want to call them Muslims or Islamists

But the Jews, Isrealis
If you can't distinguish Muslims from Islamists or Jews from Israelis, this conversation can't go anywhere.

When Christian extremists do bad stuff people don't say they were non Christians.
I wouldn't be too sure. It happens all the time on these forums.

By definition, a Christian does not murder people.
Whoever this person was, he was/is not Christian.

And there certainly isn't a leap to generalize that "Christians [all] want to blow up abortion clinics or execute gay people."
 
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stevevw

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If you can't distinguish Muslims from Islamists or Jews from Israelis, this conversation can't go anywhere.
What are Islamist acting on but the same basic Koran and beliefs as all Muslims. That being Jewish, Christian and western is blasphemy and punishable by whipping and death. Its in their Holy book.

Though not every Muslim will act out on this but it sure is a natural follow on that allows many radicals to cultivate this ideology into their societies by teaching the next generations that they should hate others. The exact opposite of Christianity.
I wouldn't be too sure. It happens all the time on these forums.

By definition, a Christian does not murder people.
Whoever this person was, he was/is not Christian.

And there certainly isn't a leap to generalize that "Christians [all] want to blow up abortion clinics or execute gay people."
THeres a generalization by secular society that Christianity is bad and causes problems due to the percieved bad stuff the church has done. Look at the recent inquiry into child abuse which was caused by a small minority and yet the entire church has been labelled abusive by many. Even automatically assuming good priests and people are abusive.

In fact being a Christian is often used to oust people, give them a hard time as Christianity is seen as divisive and hateful perse.
 
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stevevw

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Those verses in the Qur'an aren't referring to the Bible or the four gospels. There is only one gospel in Islam.

The injil (singular) that is recognized in the Qur'an is the gospel that was sent directly down to Jesus, not the gospels of Matthew, Luke, John, and Mark found in the Bible, as the following verse will show.

We sent in their wake our messengers and followed up with Jesus, son of Mary, and we gave him the gospel and instilled in the hearts of those who followed him compassion and mercy. (Qur'an 57:27)

The gospels of Matthew, Luke, John, and Mark found in the Bible are historical accounts of Jesus and what He said during His earthly ministry. They were written after the death and resurrection of Jesus and didn't exist during the time Jesus walked the earth; therefore, they are not the gospel (Injil) mentioned in the Qur'an that was given to Jesus while he was walking the earth.
The Gospels were written during the time of Jesus, well at least some of it and the stories of Jesus which was the main way people shared teachings was alive and well and spreading fast.

Why would the Qur'an talk about Jesus being given the gospel that he was to teach His followers the Christians be the Qur'an. That is the opposite of what Jesus was teaching and has nothing to do with Christianity.

It makes more sense that the Gospels and teachings, the ones actually about Christs life, His promised birth as Immanuel, His crucifixtion and resurrection and how this relates to the Old Testament be the teachings that was given to Christians as that is the very core of Christian teachings.

Why would Jesus have recieved the Qur'an gospels that denied His own status and the core of Christian belief. Why would they give Jesus and the Christians this false and foreign teaching which they could not understand when the Christian gospels was written in Aramaic. Why would the Qur'an say that the Bible teachings are truth and should be believed.

Islam also says that the gospels, should be given in the language of the people who recieve it to be fully understood. The MUslims thought the Gospels were in Greek due to the times they were living. But they were in the language of the Hebrews at that time of Jesus which was Aramaic.

It all seems a contradiction whichever way you look at it.
 
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BCP1928

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The Gospels were written during the time of Jesus, well at least some of it and the stories of Jesus which was the main way people shared teachings was alive and well and spreading fast.

Why would the Qur'an talk about Jesus being given the gospel that he was to teach His followers the Christians be the Qur'an. That is the opposite of what Jesus was teaching and has nothing to do with Christianity.

It makes more sense that the Gospels and teachings, the ones actually about Christs life, His promised birth as Immanuel, His crucifixtion and resurrection and how this relates to the Old Testament be the teachings that was given to Christians as that is the very core of Christian teachings.

Why would Jesus have recieved the Qur'an gospels that denied His own status and the core of Christian belief. Why would they give Jesus and the Christians this false and foreign teaching which they could not understand when the Christian gospels was written in Aramaic. Why would the Qur'an say that the Bible teachings are truth and should be believed.

Islam also says that the gospels, should be given in the language of the people who recieve it to be fully understood. The MUslims thought the Gospels were in Greek due to the times they were living. But they were in the language of the Hebrews at that time of Jesus which was Aramaic.

It all seems a contradiction whichever way you look at it.
You have to expect contradictions to arise when you float imaginary ideas about other people's religion.
 
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stevevw

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You have to expect contradictions to arise when you float imaginary ideas about other people's religion.
Well the imaginary ideas are created by the claim that the Allah gave Christ the Qur'an to teach the Christians when it denies Christ as God. It makes more sense they were talking about the Christians own gospels.

The verseI quoted verse 47 comes from a section from verse 42 to 48 in chapter 5 which was suppose to be among the last chapters revealed to Muhammad and speaks about the Chrtistian gospels and the Torah. It quotes directly from the Torah Exodus 21 verse 23 "an eye for an eye". Why would the Qur'an quote a bible they say is corrupt.

Verse 48 which follows 47 says "And O dear Prophet (Muhammad peace and blessing be upon him) we have sent down the true Book upon you confirming the Books preceding it, and a protector and witness over them- therefore judge between them according to what is sent down by Allah".

So it clarifies verse 47 is speaking about the Christian Gospels and the Torah.

Chapter 10 verse 94 says "So if you are in doubt O [Muhammad] about that which We have revealed to you then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The Truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters".

So Allah is saying to Muhammad if you are in doubt Muhammad go to the people before you, the Jews and Christians because they have the Truth in their scriptures.

Whats more at the time Muhammad was writing these last chapters the Gospels and Torah were well read throughout the Middle East so future Muslims were well versed in them as asked why Muhammads name was not in them. So the Qur'an had to contradict the Bible and Jesus by adding that Muhammad would follow Jesus as the last great Prophet.

Chapter 61 verse 6 "And when Jesus son of Mary said Children of Isreal I am indeed Messenger of God to you confirming the Torah that is before me, and giving good tidings of a Messenger who will come after me whose name shall be Ahmad (Muhammad)".

So it seems that this is the motivation for the Muslims to assume the Christian Bible is corrupt without any evidence because it doen't mention Muhammad.

So the MUslims are stuck between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand the Qur'an confirms the Truth of the Gospels and Torah, the Truth of Christ as the Son of God. But on the other hand have to denounce it becuase it doesn't mention Muhammad.
 
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JosephZ

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So the MUslims are stuck between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand the Qur'an confirms the Truth of the Gospels and Torah, the Truth of Christ as the Son of God. But on the other hand have to denounce it becuase it doesn't mention Muhammad.
The Quran is referring to original revelation given to Jesus; the Injil (gospel).

We sent Jesus son of Mary, fulfilling the Torah that preceded him; and We gave him the Gospel, wherein is guidance and light, and confirming the Torah that preceded him, and guidance and counsel for the righteous. (Qur'an 5:46)

This could not be the gospels that are in the Bible, because they had not been written yet, and the Qur'an says that the gospel was given directly to Jesus.

Whats more at the time Muhammad was writing these last chapters the Gospels and Torah were well read throughout the Middle East so future Muslims were well versed in them as asked why Muhammads name was not in them.
Arabs in the Middle East at the time of Muhammad were illiterate for the most part, and even for those who could read, there was no Arabic translation of the Torah or the Bible at the time.

Verse 48 which follows 47 says "And O dear Prophet (Muhammad peace and blessing be upon him) we have sent down the true Book upon you confirming the Books preceding it, and a protector and witness over them- therefore judge between them according to what is sent down by Allah".

So it clarifies verse 47 is speaking about the Christian Gospels and the Torah.

Chapter 10 verse 94 says "So if you are in doubt O [Muhammad] about that which We have revealed to you then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The Truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters".

So Allah is saying to Muhammad if you are in doubt Muhammad go to the people before you, the Jews and Christians because they have the Truth in their scriptures.
When the Quran mentions the previous scripture, it's referring to the original revelations. The written and published scriptures we have available today aren't considered to be an original revelation in Islam.

He sent down to you the Book with the Truth [The Qur'an], confirming what came before it [The Injil, the Zabur, the Tawrat, and the Suhuf]; and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel [The Injil, Not the Gospels of Matthew, John, Luke, and Mark]. (Quran 3:3)

Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “O People of the Book! You have nothing to stand on unless you observe the Torah, the Gospel [The Injil, not the Gospels of Matthew, John, Luke, and Mark], and what has been revealed to you from your Lord.” And your Lord’s revelation to you ˹O Prophet˺ will only cause many of them to increase in wickedness and disbelief. So do not grieve for the people who disbelieve. (Qur'an 5:68)

The "People of the Book" are considered those nations/people who received previous revelations from God through the prophets, and the "Book" isn't the Bible but rather a book that is in the presence of God, known as the Mother of Books. It's from this Mother of Books that the Injil/Gospel of Jesus, the Zabur/Psalms of David, the Tawrat/Torah of Moses, and the Suhuf/Scrolls of Abraham originated. They are individual books/scriptures and are not contained in a single book like our Bible. The Qur'an also originated from the Mother of Books. Each of these books was directly given to the prophet to be revealed to their followers at the point in history at which they lived.

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