Pro-Life

[flicka]

I'm not understanding how you have have a murder if you don't have a person as the victim. Can you explain that please?

Realistically it's because of the emotional impact attached to loosing a wanted pregnancy or the likelihood of it's survival outside the womb at the time of death. We make laws to punish people for doing things that hurt other people, and a wanted child's death in the womb, against the mothers will, is why we consider it a crime. It's a terribly grey area and not all states, or people, have agreed on this but it's the best we can do. If you are looking for a loophole on abortion based on this kind of thing you won't find it because the legal process is coming from two entirely different directions and the best we can hope for is a solid middle ground. But that means it's never going to be all or nothing. Never.

 

[chaz345]

Realistically it's because of the emotional impact attached to loosing a wanted pregnancy or the likelihood of it's survival outside the womb at the time of death. We make laws to punish people for doing things that hurt other people, and a wanted child's death in the womb, against the mothers will, is why we consider it a crime. It's a terribly grey area and not all states, or people, have agreed on this but it's the best we can do. If you are looking for a loophole on abortion based on this kind of thing you won't find it because the legal process is coming from two entirely different directions and the best we can hope for is a solid middle ground. But that means it's never going to be all or nothing. Never.

I just don't think that wether or not another human wants you, even if you are temporarily dependent on their body for your existance should have anything at all to do with wether or not one is considered a person with legal rights.

One could make the argument that no person should ever be required to sacrifice any part of their own body for another person, but that argument doesn't really hold water when one considers that in the huge majority of cases, the pregnancy is the reasonably foreseeable result. of a willful choice that was made.

 

[imind]

but that argument doesn't really hold water when one considers that in the huge majority of cases, the pregnancy is the reasonably foreseeable result. of a willful choice that was made.

how is it 'reasonably foreseeable', given the success rate of contraceptives? it seems more than 'reasonable' that no pregnancy would result.

 

[flicka]

I just don't think that wether or not another human wants you, even if you are temporarily dependent on their body for your existance should have anything at all to do with wether or not one is considered a person with legal rights.

One could make the argument that no person should ever be required to sacrifice any part of their own body for another person, but that argument doesn't really hold water when one considers that in the huge majority of cases, the pregnancy is the reasonably foreseeable result. of a willful choice that was made.

Well it's pretty hard granting full rights to something 3 weeks out from conception so I don't think it's going to happen.

 

[Asimov]

I'm not understanding how you have have a murder if you don't have a person as the victim. Can you explain that please?

That's US Law. The fetus is not considered a person, by law. Because only the mother has the right to terminate the pregnancy, they make the punishment for killing a fetus the same as if it were murder.

If you read the wording of the law, they never indicate that the fetus is a person (which is a legal term, btw). They make reference to "unborn child" and "fetus", but never "person". If it was a person, they wouldn't need to create laws that specify a situation like that, they would just say "murder of a person".

 

[morningstar2651]

If abortion is murder.
Then miscarriage is manslaughter.

 

[poohgirl]

It's a difference yes, but that's not the issue. The issue is "is it wrong to terminate a pregnancy?"

If, a woman has a miscarriage she hasn't terminated anything by choice it happened on it's own. It's a terrible lost! Not a planned event. So, an elected abortion and a tragic miscarriage not even in the same ball park.

 

[poohgirl]

If abortion is murder.
Then miscarriage is manslaughter.

Abortion is an elected event by someone to outright end a life period.
Miscarriage is a very tragic lost of life, not by choice at all.
Totally different.

 

[morningstar2651]

Abortion is an elected event by someone to outright end a life period.
Miscarriage is a very tragic lost of life, not by choice at all.
Totally different.

Manslaughter isn't intentional, either.

 

[GeoMetro]

how is it 'reasonably foreseeable', given the success rate of contraceptives? it seems more than 'reasonable' that no pregnancy would result.

What if they didn't use any contraceptives?

 

[KomissarSteve]

Abortion is an elected event by someone to outright end a life period.

According to your opinion.

 

[Asimov]

If, a woman has a miscarriage she hasn't terminated anything by choice it happened on it's own. It's a terrible lost! Not a planned event. So, an elected abortion and a tragic miscarriage not even in the same ball park.

So?

 

[imind]

What if they didn't use any contraceptives?

then it would be reasonably foreseeable. are we then going to allow abortions for only those who used contraceptives?

my point was that the pregnancy being reasonably foreseeable isn't a valid arguement.

 

[chaz345]

how is it 'reasonably foreseeable', given the success rate of contraceptives? it seems more than 'reasonable' that no pregnancy would result.

Anyone who believes that any contraception method is 100% is pretty darn stupid.

 

[chaz345]

Manslaughter isn't intentional, either.

No but it does involve some sort of intentional act even if the intent wasn't the death of another person. In a miscarriage,no one did anything to cause it. There is simply zero analogy between miscarriage and manslaughter.

 

[Asimov]

No but it does involve some sort of intentional act even if the intent wasn't the death of another person. In a miscarriage,no one did anything to cause it. There is simply zero analogy between miscarriage and manslaughter.

Unless a woman slips and falls, causing her miscarriage.

 

[Gamezilla]

making abortion illegal wouldn't stop abortion, just make it unsafe. The only way to reduce abortion is to increase education and contraception availability. Making abortion illegal will never do anything but lead to unsafe abortions. Ensuring that people know how to avoid getting pregnant will reduce abortions. Hence abortions should be safe, legal, and rare.

You want to stop "some" abortions? End abstinence only education. Stop fighting against groups like Planned Parenthood who probably stop more abortions with their education and free contraceptives than all the protests and mangled fetus signs in the world have.

Unsafe abortions are already happening, and it's probably going to keep happening. What's wrong with making abortion illegal and teaching kids what's safe and what's not? It doesn't matter even if you legalize abortion, because unsafe abortion is still going to happen.

 

[JustOneWay]

Unsafe abortions are already happening, and it's probably going to keep happening.

Please clarify the phrase "unsafe abortions" and provide statistics, thank you.

 

[GeoMetro]

Do you think a woman should be stopped or fined if she has 2, 3, or 4 abortions?

 

[Asimov]

Do you think a woman should be stopped or fined if she has 2, 3, or 4 abortions?

Do you think a woman should be stopped if she has 2, 3, or 4 breast augmentations?