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Pro-Life Protesting Behavior

kevin36

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There are certainly no "killings" involved in abortion...

So... please describe for me exactly what it is that you do believe is occuring during an abortion. What does the procedure do..? If the focus of the procedure isn't a life, what is it? You never did counter my statement about the life processes... the heartbeat, breathing, etc, not to mention the bodily shape itself... arms, legs, head...

If it isn't a life, a human life, what is it, exactly? And no quoting of cleanly defining medical terms... I want your opinion.
 
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EnemyPartyII

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You're defining this by the law. Thank you for finally clarifying that. But what is your personal view, without hiding behind the law?

To you, as a Christian, is the current law in this country that allows the killing of unborn children above God's Law that says that it is wrong? Is that a proper assessment of your position?

You also never answered my question as to when you believe life begins, and therefor when it should begin being protected.
Christ himself did not put his law higher than the state's... "render unto Caesar" remember?

as for when life begins... eggs and spermatozoa are both alive, there is never any point in the reproductive process when the offspring is not "alive"... including well before conception, and the billions of reproductive cells that die in the course of every conception...

So the question shouldn't be about when something becomes "alive" but when it can be considered a "person"
 
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kevin36

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I don't think Christ telling people to pay their taxes is in the same category, and that's what He was doing in the referance you made...

I was asking Texas Lynn something, but she doesn't seem to want to answer, or hasn't as of yet, so I'll ask you then- You say it isn't when something becomes alive, but when it becomes a person. When exactly does that happen? When do they become worthy of our respect and protection?
 
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Hunterkirk

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Christ himself did not put his law higher than the state's... "render unto Caesar" remember?

as for when life begins... eggs and spermatozoa are both alive, there is never any point in the reproductive process when the offspring is not "alive"... including well before conception, and the billions of reproductive cells that die in the course of every conception...

So the question shouldn't be about when something becomes "alive" but when it can be considered a "person"
True but Christ also stated that in the end you will be judged by your creator. That include Caeser and all thoses that run the governments of this mortal world. When they create laws or use the power of the state to go against God's will they will suffer for doing so.

Now it is true that the Bible does not directly talk about abortion. It is also true that every cell of your body is alive yet we happyly kill off cells all the time.. see cancer treatments. But what can not be rejected is that the cells belonging to a unborn developing human "Fetus" have the ability to become a much larger independantly living organizism. The issue is and always has been when is that fetus like us humans.

Clearly it is human from the very begining, although under construction. If not aborted, either naturally or by outside forces namely the abortion we are discussing here, it will become a human with thoughts and feelings. The ability to think "brain waves" have been documented to occur well before birth. The ability to feel pain has been documented even earlier, see reaction of the fetus to outside object touching it or worse killing it.

At what point is a person a person? How many inches out of the womans body does it take before the person becomes a person? If you can abort a child and it not be murder how can you charge someone who by physically attacking the mother kills the unborn child with murder? Clearly the child has a viability point well before birthing and viability includes the ability to think and feel.

The truth is that the unborn child is indeed alive and at a certain point before birth has all the mental abilities and feelings that a new born child has. The arguement forwarded by pro-abortion(Choice) people is more based on a "right" of a woman to determine the fate of their unborn child, namely the right to kill the unborn child.

This arguement is based soully on the fact that the woman is carrying the child. It seems to totally disreguard the child that is being carried. So much so that every effort is made to de-humanize the child, making a point of never calling it a child and refuseing to admit that it has life, feelings, or thought. But clearly at some point it must possess these elements of what it means to be a human being.

I think it is totally fair to say at the point of viability the child possesses the characteristics that could define them as being human. At that point, as a human being, the child possess the same rights as the mother. If she wants nothing to do with the child past that point the mother should be required to birth the child and respect the child right to life.
 
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EnemyPartyII

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I don't think Christ telling people to pay their taxes is in the same category, and that's what He was doing in the referance you made...

I was asking Texas Lynn something, but she doesn't seem to want to answer, or hasn't as of yet, so I'll ask you then- You say it isn't when something becomes alive, but when it becomes a person. When exactly does that happen? When do they become worthy of our respect and protection?
As i have said many times previously... I am anti-abortion generally... but I don't consider it the equal of killing a PERSON until well into the second trimester at the earliest...

Once there is any realistic chance that the foetus has any shred of self aware consciousness, THEN I think we can start talking about things in terms of "killing a person"... but prior to that, while I still think abortion is to be avoided, I don't think its in the same category
 
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EnemyPartyII

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Now it is true that the Bible does not directly talk about abortion. It is also true that every cell of your body is alive yet we happyly kill off cells all the time.. see cancer treatments. But what can not be rejected is that the cells belonging to a unborn developing human "Fetus" have the ability to become a much larger independantly living organizism. The issue is and always has been when is that fetus like us humans.
Cancer too, under certain circumstances, has the ability to go off and become a much larger independant living organism, just out of interest.
Clearly it is human from the very begining, although under construction. If not aborted, either naturally or by outside forces namely the abortion we are discussing here, it will become a human with thoughts and feelings. The ability to think "brain waves" have been documented to occur well before birth. The ability to feel pain has been documented even earlier, see reaction of the fetus to outside object touching it or worse killing it.
Yes, its always human, but not always a person... ny more than an acorn is an oak tree... they are both living representatives of the same species... but they aren't equivalent.
At what point is a person a person? How many inches out of the womans body does it take before the person becomes a person? If you can abort a child and it not be murder how can you charge someone who by physically attacking the mother kills the unborn child with murder? Clearly the child has a viability point well before birthing and viability includes the ability to think and feel.
I agree. In terms of viability... a foetus is in a LOT of trouble if it is born prior to 34 weeks gestation...
The truth is that the unborn child is indeed alive and at a certain point before birth has all the mental abilities and feelings that a new born child has. The arguement forwarded by pro-abortion(Choice) people is more based on a "right" of a woman to determine the fate of their unborn child, namely the right to kill the unborn child.
I disagree. Its NOT about the right to kill anything... its about a woman's right to do what she likes with her own body.

If you woke up to find a person living off your internal organs, and would die if you disconected that person... would you see disconecting the person as being about killing the person or about your right to self determination?
This arguement is based soully on the fact that the woman is carrying the child. It seems to totally disreguard the child that is being carried. So much so that every effort is made to de-humanize the child, making a point of never calling it a child and refuseing to admit that it has life, feelings, or thought. But clearly at some point it must possess these elements of what it means to be a human being.
You don't seem too keen to accept that the foetus doesn't have the ability to have any sense of self for a LONG time into the pregnancy...

as for your claim that a foetus responds to stimuli... so does a venus fly trap, but they aren't self aware.
I think it is totally fair to say at the point of viability the child possesses the characteristics that could define them as being human. At that point, as a human being, the child possess the same rights as the mother. If she wants nothing to do with the child past that point the mother should be required to birth the child and respect the child right to life.
You are, of course, aware that the vast bulk of abortions occur well before ther is any chance the child is viable?
 
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kevin36

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As i have said many times previously... I am anti-abortion generally... but I don't consider it the equal of killing a PERSON until well into the second trimester at the earliest...

Once there is any realistic chance that the foetus has any shred of self aware consciousness, THEN I think we can start talking about things in terms of "killing a person"... but prior to that, while I still think abortion is to be avoided, I don't think its in the same category

I disagree with you, but thank you for answering my question so clearly.
 
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kevin36

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As a side-note to this discussion...

I have just been chided for making a comment waaaaaay back towards the beginning of this thread that was taken as being demeaning towards another posters faith and/or belief.

To be clear, let me say that I meant no disrespect towards anybody, and simply meant to show my amazement and misunderstanding as to how certain statements that were made seemed to me to contradict commonly held beliefs of a particular religion.

If I have personally offended any body I appologise, and I will in the future try to be more proper in my phrasing.
 
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Hunterkirk

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Cancer too, under certain circumstances, has the ability to go off and become a much larger independant living organism, just out of interest.Yes, its always human, but not always a person... ny more than an acorn is an oak tree... they are both living representatives of the same species... but they aren't equivalent.I agree. In terms of viability... a foetus is in a LOT of trouble if it is born prior to 34 weeks gestation...I disagree. Its NOT about the right to kill anything... its about a woman's right to do what she likes with her own body.

If you woke up to find a person living off your internal organs, and would die if you disconected that person... would you see disconecting the person as being about killing the person or about your right to self determination?You don't seem too keen to accept that the foetus doesn't have the ability to have any sense of self for a LONG time into the pregnancy...

as for your claim that a foetus responds to stimuli... so does a venus fly trap, but they aren't self aware.You are, of course, aware that the vast bulk of abortions occur well before ther is any chance the child is viable?
Yes I am but Viability keeps getting earlier and ealier, in one case 22 weeks. The question is how much medical care do you want to give the birth child.

Also the question is are you willing to ban after viability abortion... so far I get the impression your ok with abortion up to a second before birth.
 
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DarkWinter

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The fetus in the woman is not the woman's body! A woman has every right do do what she wants towith her body.... I get so sick and tired of hearing that! /from the moment of conception, that fetues, that baby, has its very own DNA. The process of creating a baby inside the woman is so amazing, because if you were to take a sample from that bay, and then inject it into the mother, her cells would reject it and begin to fight it. It is a totally different being than the mother, and that is scientifically proven!!!
 
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Electric Skeptic

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The fetus in the woman is not the woman's body! A woman has every right do do what she wants towith her body.... I get so sick and tired of hearing that! /from the moment of conception, that fetues, that baby, has its very own DNA. The process of creating a baby inside the woman is so amazing, because if you were to take a sample from that bay, and then inject it into the mother, her cells would reject it and begin to fight it. It is a totally different being than the mother, and that is scientifically proven!!!
As long as its within the woman's body, she has the right to do whatever she likes. Sorry that you get tired of hearing it...but it's true.
 
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Texas Lynn

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When another life is involve, a life that can be medically safely birthed it becomes no longer just a womans right to her own body, since with in that body is another person whom has rights also.

Since that is not the case in an abortion it is irrelevant.
 
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Angel4Truth

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Thats right, its only a person when its wanted. Its only a person inside the mother if its killed by a drunk driver for example - but if the mother doesnt want it, its not a person anymore.

Oh and if the mother delivers prematurely say at 20 weeks and the "fetus" survives then its a baby and if the mother kills it, she goes to prison for murder. But -

if she aborts it before it can be born at 20 weeks- shes a champion of human rights electing to excercise her right to choose. Not sure why some cannot see this double standard in action.
 
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Texas Lynn

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You're defining this by the law. Thank you for finally clarifying that. But what is your personal view, without hiding behind the law?

I don't consider it "hiding". I consider the legal defitions here of paramount importance. I believe the current defintion, that a fetus is not a person, is correct.

To you, as a Christian, is the current law in this country that allows the killing of unborn children above God's Law that says that it is wrong? Is that a proper assessment of your position?

This sentence ought to be in the dictionary where "baiting" is defined. My, my, would you look at that! Marvelous. I never said any such thing, and I dispute your premise. "God's Law" is entirely silent on the matter of abortion. A fetus is not specifically an "unborn child" any more than a sperm is, but keep that quiet because the antiabort people are going to want to outlaw masturbation, too, if they see that, and a considerable number of them do already.

You also never answered my question as to when you believe life begins, and therefor when it should begin being protected.

Birth.

Why do you think we measure our age from our birthdays? Because we're not people previously, that's why. For millions of years this has been the measure of humankind and now because it offers an opportunity to oppress women some want to change that paradigm. Not gonna happen.
 
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Texas Lynn

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Simply because I hold women in general in high regard does not mean that I have to respect a specific decision, be it to abort a child, or to do anything else. There are many, many off-topic activities, moralities, etc, that I could name that I am against, even though I respect and love the people themselves.

The term "respect" as used by us is relevant here. What I mean, when I say "respect for women" entails minding your own business regarding this issue and leaving it up to the woman is the only moral response. To do otherwise is to intrude in things not of your concern. "Respect" used thus means merely leaving others alone. It's like, my banker brother-in-law voted for Bush but I don't go out of the way to ridicule him for it and don't throw eggs at his car. That's treating him with respect. Those waving pix of bloody fetii or in some cases obvious stillbirths in an act of deception in front of clinics are not acting out of respect for the women, the clinic staff and volunteers, or themselves.
 
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