Pro-Life, Anti-Mask?

[muichimotsu]

This is a very poor comparison, and it's getting rather old as people continually attempt to repeat it in order to shore up their "wear a mask or you hate everyone and want them to die" nonsense.

Believing that murdering unborn babies is abhorrent is a far cry from not believing that we should all be wearing a disposable mask with "does not prevent disease transmission" right on the box.

I never said hate, I said you don't care about others, you lack empathy, if you decide to just flagrantly disregard things that are based in science and not just some control tactic or other paranoid nonsense

Get bent with this literalist b.s. that tries to suggest they are telling you that the whole thing is somehow a lie. They never claimed 100%, you haven't read the disclaimer that carefully, you're just taking what is convenient to this denialist crap and saying, "Look, I'm not crazy,"

They're not babies universally speaking, first off, that's a dishonest conflation of the terms based on ignoring the medical context, but also trying to appeal to emotion as if that grants credence to your argument, which it really doesn't, especially when you don't appear to care about autonomy when life is involved, except when it comes to virtually anything else but abortion. Do you advocate for self defense rights? Then how is abortion any different in that the woman did not consent to pregnancy, only to sex, and sometimes not even that?

If you have exceptions for rape, then you care more about autonomy than you seem to indicate if you're saying a woman's autonomy in reproductive health doesn't matter when she's pregnant, which is special pleading barring an actual justification of the exception

 

[Online.Gamer.79]

And what evidence do you have that justifies that statement?

I remember hearing about a 10 year old girl who was raped and got pregnant and conservatives insisted she should carry to term. Know thought on the danger to her physically because pregnancy is not without risk women still die from and it does damage to the body of and adult much less a 10 year old. There is your proof, I have listened to conservatives make arguments for every situation would you like to start posting links to the articles for you...go google and you find several million

 

[Online.Gamer.79]

Often you hear this argument:

Pro-choicers: Women should have the right to control their own bodies and not be forced to carry a pregnancy to term, so abortion should be legal.

Pro-lifers: Who cares about your rights? It's more important to protect the lives of the unborn, so the government should outlaw abortion!

But recently, you often hear this:

Government: This is a very dangerous and deadly virus that has killed hundreds of thousands of Americans, so during this pandemic, you need to wear masks to protect people's lives.

Anti-maskers (who tend to be the same people as the abovementioned pro-lifers): Who cares about other people's lives? It's more important that the government shouldn't be allowed to tell us what to do!

Does no one see the hypocrisy here?


(Let me just say that I empathize strongly with the pro-life position. I just don't endorse it because all the evidence suggests that outlawing abortion won't decrease it, just make it more unsafe for the mother. But the goal of reducing abortions is a good one, and historically that is best done by comprehensive sex education and access to birth control.)

You make a lot of valid points but its a pointless argument. Each side has a view and there not gonna change

 

[disciple Clint]

I remember hearing about a 10 year old girl who was raped and got pregnant and conservatives insisted she should carry to term. Know thought on the danger to her physically because pregnancy is not without risk women still die from and it does damage to the body of and adult much less a 10 year old. There is your proof, I have listened to conservatives make arguments for every situation would you like to start posting links to the articles for you...go google and you find several million

That is totally anecdotal and fails the test for evidence. On the other hand 100% of abortions result in the death of a child. That is an undisputed fact.

 

[SolaChristian]

That is totally anecdotal and fails the test for evidence. On the other hand 100% of abortions result in the death of a child. That is an undisputed fact.

Not to mention that rape cases are probably like 1% of abortions or even less. I remember they opened an abortion mill in my town a few years ago, but the people who opened it eventually decided to close and repented, because their only clients were a bunch of old men bring their much younger women, and it was quite obvious that most of the abortion "clients" were, in fact, merely irresponsible cowards who could not face the consequences of something that they freely chose to do.

 

[Online.Gamer.79]

That is totally anecdotal and fails the test for evidence. On the other hand 100% of abortions result in the death of a child. That is an undisputed fact.

You know weather the fetus in those first few months is a human or not is up for debate. Now sure how this turned into the abortion debate but if you want to go lets go. Is around 28 weeks the the fetus starts to feel pain or have consciousness. I will not argue 25 weeks in...there is not question at the point on it being human or not. And again you conservatives are so concerned about the child. But not the mothers...its all black and white.

oh and my mistake the girl was 11 not 10
A pregnant 11-year-old rape victim in Ohio would no longer be allowed to have an abortion under new state law

 

[SolaChristian]

And again you conservatives are so concerned about the child. But not the mothers...its all black and white.

Just pointing out that this is a fallacy (tu quoque fallacy: pretending as if not being concerned with women's health has anything to do with whether abortion is murder or not).

 

[Online.Gamer.79]

Just pointing out that this is a fallacy (tu quoque fallacy: pretending as if not being concerned with women's health has anything to do with whether abortion is murder or not).

But it does...carrying a child to term does damage to a woman's body physically and mentally...people still die from childbirth. It needs to be the woman's consent to carry it.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

I'm so happy you asked.

A new survey shows what really interests 'pro-lifers': controlling women | Jill Filipovic

This is such progressive DNC-speak nonsense. What actually matters is that everyone deserves a chance to live. Don't want to raise a child? We have something called birth control; use it. Fertility is way down anyway - shouldn't be much of a problem. Women have every right to and ability to control their own reproductive choices. Make that decision BEFORE you create a new life, ok? That really seems to be little to ask; rational people do this already.

Most of the people who believe that a baby should be given the chance to live once created also happen to believe other scriptural matters. Hence, some of the ideas - which have been completely distorted by those who cannot comprehend them - in the article.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

But it does...carrying a child to term does damage to a woman's body physically and mentally...people still die from childbirth. It needs to be the woman's consent to carry it.

It is. All the women I know are fully conversant about birth control. Or, if Catholic and observant, about how to avoid periods of the month when pregnancy is more likely.

If you do the activity which is completely known to cause pregnancy, you are on notice that pregnancy is a possible result. Deal with it prior to, not after it happens.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Often you hear this argument:

Pro-choicers: Women should have the right to control their own bodies and not be forced to carry a pregnancy to term, so abortion should be legal.

Pro-lifers: Who cares about your rights? It's more important to protect the lives of the unborn, so the government should outlaw abortion!

But recently, you often hear this:

Government: This is a very dangerous and deadly virus that has killed hundreds of thousands of Americans, so during this pandemic, you need to wear masks to protect people's lives.

Anti-maskers (who tend to be the same people as the abovementioned pro-lifers): Who cares about other people's lives? It's more important that the government shouldn't be allowed to tell us what to do!

Does no one see the hypocrisy here?


(Let me just say that I empathize strongly with the pro-life position. I just don't endorse it because all the evidence suggests that outlawing abortion won't decrease it, just make it more unsafe for the mother. But the goal of reducing abortions is a good one, and historically that is best done by comprehensive sex education and access to birth control.)

Birth control has never been hard to acquire as long as I can remember and I’d imagine only an extremely minuscule percentage of people who get abortions actually didn’t know they could get pregnant by having sex. I mean what are we talking about 1 in a couple thousand?

However I do agree with you that pro-lifers should definitely practice what they preach and wear their mask. Still I’d also like to point out that not everyone who complains about wearing them doesn’t actually wear them. I certainly don’t like wearing them but I do it anyway to protect myself and others. Just because people don’t like something doesn’t mean they don’t do it. I hate paying bills, unfortunately it happens nonstop.

 

[Online.Gamer.79]

It is. All the women I know are fully conversant about birth control. Or, if Catholic and observant, about how to avoid periods of the month when pregnancy is more likely.

If you do the activity which is completely known to cause pregnancy, you are on notice that pregnancy is a possible result. Deal with it prior to, not after it happens.

And the girl who is raped what about her. And the women or child or both who will not survive the pregnancy. You know what I have checked studies making abortion will not stop it. If a woman has the money she will go to a country or state were it is legal. Those who can afford will you back all abortion doctors like they used to. Teaching sex ed is more effective, I have heard conservatives say condoms do not work and that is a lie...if used correctly there 98% effective and along with preventing pregnancy they prevent std's. And before you start on about following the bible and not having sex to marriage....not everyone is Christian. about 2 billion of a planet of 7 billion are Christian. At the end of the day this is about 2 billion trying to force there moral and religious and personal beliefs on the other 5 billion. Actually it is probably less than 2 billion because because Christianity is losing people.

 

[disciple Clint]

You know weather the fetus in those first few months is a human or not is up for debate. Now sure how this turned into the abortion debate but if you want to go lets go. Is around 28 weeks the the fetus starts to feel pain or have consciousness. I will not argue 25 weeks in...there is not question at the point on it being human or not. And again you conservatives are so concerned about the child. But not the mothers...its all black and white.

oh and my mistake the girl was 11 not 10
A pregnant 11-year-old rape victim in Ohio would no longer be allowed to have an abortion under new state law

That makes two mistakes, that is not a fetus it is a human child from the moment of conception

 

[muichimotsu]

That is totally anecdotal and fails the test for evidence. On the other hand 100% of abortions result in the death of a child. That is an undisputed fact.

So if someone brought up evidence it was a thing and not just an isolated incident, but has happened several times, you'd change your mind and accept that maybe incest and rape should be exceptions given the undue amount of harm psychologically and physiologically, especially for a 10 year old girl?

 

[muichimotsu]

That makes two mistakes, that is not a fetus it is a human child from the moment of conception

No one doubts the human DNA, personhood is not something necessarily possessed by a fetus, especially a non viable one, because it doesn't even have the capacity to think, let alone feel like a house cat would.

 

[muichimotsu]

It is. All the women I know are fully conversant about birth control. Or, if Catholic and observant, about how to avoid periods of the month when pregnancy is more likely.

If you do the activity which is completely known to cause pregnancy, you are on notice that pregnancy is a possible result. Deal with it prior to, not after it happens.

But women don't always know they're pregnant, it's not like they consent to that part, it's as unconscious as getting food poisoning. Dealing with it by early detection is not some targeting or anything, it's a woman being in control and aware of her reproductive health, something I only know indirectly as someone who knows women and discusses this with them on occasion about all the complexities and that "shark week" (a term I did not know was applied to that situation versus the Discovery Channel)

 

[muichimotsu]

Just pointing out that this is a fallacy (tu quoque fallacy: pretending as if not being concerned with women's health has anything to do with whether abortion is murder or not).

Abortion as murder is context sensitive based on Roe v. Wade because that's a legal discussion primarily in regards to whether a fetus dying constitutes murder, whereas an abortion is a medical procedure and is not done with malice aforethought and such, so it wouldn't constitute legal murder, you'd have to be debating more the nature of morality as regards killing and even then it's debatable in same vein as killing or letting die as a distinction (though that's usually applied to euthanasia, to be fair).

And not all killing is murder, so qualifying what constitutes that is the fundamental debate, whereas the idea of women's health gets into related, but distinct issues about patriarchal culture, misogyny, internalized sexism, etc.

 

[muichimotsu]

Not to mention that rape cases are probably like 1% of abortions or even less. I remember they opened an abortion mill in my town a few years ago, but the people who opened it eventually decided to close and repented, because their only clients were a bunch of old men bring their much younger women, and it was quite obvious that most of the abortion "clients" were, in fact, merely irresponsible cowards who could not face the consequences of something that they freely chose to do.

The exception is not something just thrown out to excuse all abortions, it's an argument even conservatives cannot dismiss as an exception without essentially saying the fetus has special rights to override a woman's autonomy when in any other situation, you'd hold a woman as a victim and not a victimizer

Legally, that doesn't mean they shouldn't have that right, but if they weren't getting that much traffic or business, then it was more a problem of overassessing that rather than anything legally objectionable, because if it was before the standard Roe v. Wade sets (that is in the favor of pro life people and was even before more medical advancements) that they were likely getting the abortions.

It isn't your business what they do or whether they're bad people as long as, if there was coercion or such, that the person in question was held accountable for that, but that's a whole other issue of the stigma around women having sex and sl*t shaming, among other things that are blatantly misogynist.

 

[coffee4u]

Often you hear this argument:

Pro-choicers: Women should have the right to control their own bodies and not be forced to carry a pregnancy to term, so abortion should be legal.

Pro-lifers: Who cares about your rights? It's more important to protect the lives of the unborn, so the government should outlaw abortion!

But recently, you often hear this:

Government: This is a very dangerous and deadly virus that has killed hundreds of thousands of Americans, so during this pandemic, you need to wear masks to protect people's lives.

Anti-maskers (who tend to be the same people as the abovementioned pro-lifers): Who cares about other people's lives? It's more important that the government shouldn't be allowed to tell us what to do!

Does no one see the hypocrisy here?

(Let me just say that I empathize strongly with the pro-life position. I just don't endorse it because all the evidence suggests that outlawing abortion won't decrease it, just make it more unsafe for the mother. But the goal of reducing abortions is a good one, and historically that is best done by comprehensive sex education and access to birth control.)

Typical pro choice position trying to make pro life people look bad with something completely unconnected.

Pro Life.
Pro mask.
Thank you all the same.

It makes sense when you remember that "pro-life" is less about the life of the unborn and more about controlling sexuality and punishing promiscious women.

Rubbish.

 

[Strathos]

I'd like to remind everyone again that this thread isn't about the morality of abortion, but about inconsistent standards some people have.