Prison reform; need quicker executions, more jails, and need to increase incarnation to reduce crime

[Deidre32]

If you claim to follow Jesus, I highly doubt he would agree with you, OP. Think about what you're posting. Oh my.

First, I don't believe in the death penalty. It is not our place to take life. Secondly, prisons may be the last rung of the ladder for many, for their families have failed them, their friends have failed them...they have failed themselves. I'm not making excuses for anyone, but it stands to reason that many who are in prison came from troubled homes as kids. They need rehabilitation, and prison can be a place to do that. The reason we keep seeing more people returning to prison, is because prison is only serving as a punishment, and there's nothing being offered to rehabilitate these people so they can become productive members of society.

 

[JGG]

We execute individuals, we don't execute groups. Each person gets their own trial, we aren't putting 10 people on trial knowing 9 are guilty and one is innocent. We treat each criminal as a individual, and we execute on their individual crimes.

I know. But we are still executing a group. We are executing those who have been sentenced to death. And you yourself stated that some of those people will be innocent of the crime they are convicted of.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I'm not making excuses for anyone, but it stands to reason that many who are in prison came from troubled homes as kids.

I came from a trouble home as well as most of my friends, and many classmates in grade and high school. Several became cops, but none wound up in prison. Something else is going on here.

 

[Honey Parallel]

America has the highest incarceration rate in the world and you think while to building more prisons and executing people quicker will solve your problems?

How about finding the source of the problem because it's clear to anyone that America has an enormous issue with crime and incarceration.

That's his point maybe. Not if you kill 'em quick. The number of incarcerated goes down.

 

[JGG]

Less freedoms = less crimes. Singapore has almost no crime rate. Singapore leads the world on lower crime rates, remember the American that got jailed for 6 months and caned bloody for doing some vandalism in Singapore? I guess we can learn something from that huh.

That may be true. But Canada, a people so similar to Americans that you basically can't tell them apart, have a lower incarceration rate, and across-the-board lower crime.

About a year ago, I compared crime in Ontario to Texas (the state with the most executions) on this board. Texas had nearly twice as many murders and violent crimes, and considerably more burglaries and rapes, per capita. On top of that, fewer incidents of people being killed by police, and more racial integration or less perceived racial tension. Most importantly, Texas had far more people in prison. So, what is Ontario getting right, or what is Texas getting wrong? Maybe that's what needs to be figured out.

 

[JGG]

The problem is Satan inspired human nature, on all sides of these issues. The solution is the infusion of God's Holy Spirit into the mind and heart of man. Nothing else will work.

Well, we can't make that happen. Maybe we should still look for a more practical solution?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Well, we can't make that happen. Maybe we should still look for a more practical solution?

There are many people who have God's spirit that are willing to help (I'm available).

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That may be true. But Canada, a people so similar to Americans that you basically can't tell them apart, have a lower incarceration rate, and across-the-board lower crime.

About a year ago, I compared crime in Ontario to Texas (the state with the most executions) on this board. Texas had nearly twice as many murders and violent crimes, and considerably more burglaries and rapes, per capita. On top of that, fewer incidents of people being killed by police, and more racial integration or less perceived racial tension. Most importantly, Texas had far more people in prison. So, what is Ontario getting right, or what is Texas getting wrong? Maybe that's what needs to be figured out.

Texans and Canadians are two different manner of peoples (Canadians have more manners).

 

[Deidre32]

I came from a trouble home as well as most of my friends, and many classmates in grade and high school. Several became cops, but none wound up in prison. Something else is going on here.

That doesn't mean others will fare better. Once someone ends up in prison, for whatever the reason, the worst thing to do is throw away the key. There are people who cannot be rehabilitated, but many can be...and if people are paroled and have no new set of skills or awareness, or any type of real remorse for why they even ended up in prison to begin with, they are doomed to commit another crime, and be sent back.

Many people however, are psychopaths and sociopaths. They simply lack empathy and a conscience, and for them...it will be hard to be rehabilitated. I think the stat is 1 out of every 25 people are psychopaths? That's a lot.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That doesn't mean others will fare better. Once someone ends up in prison, for whatever the reason, the worst thing to do is throw away the key. There are people who cannot be rehabilitated, but many can be...and if people are paroled and have no new set of skills or awareness, or any type of real remorse for why they even ended up in prison to begin with, they are doomed to commit another crime, and be sent back.

Many people however, are psychopaths and sociopaths. They simply lack empathy and a conscience, and for them...it will be hard to be rehabilitated. I think the stat is 1 out of every 25 people are psychopaths? That's a lot.

This is true. Some people are just........no good.

 

[Foamhead]

I do understand the American system of jurisprudence, what part would you like to discuss with me?

I spent 1.5 years as a Public Defender, before I left to do private practice. And murder being a legal term, the killing of people who arguably might not be guilty is not murder. Murder requires intent, that intent various by the degree of murder the person is charged with. So, the state can't commit murder by unknowingly executing someone who should not have been executed.
Now, the state might arguably commit moral murder (I don't know what moral murder would be), but one can imagine moral murder would at least require knowledge of the person's innocence, which the state lacks.

The innocence project has never proven anyone innocent. It has proven that there might be reasonable doubt as to the person's guilt. That is entirely different.

Secondly, a lot of the innocence that is claimed is proven, varies in terms of the degree. For example, the innocence project has proven in the past, that someone should have been guilty of 2nd degree murder rather than 1st degree, because there is reasonable doubt as to whether or not there was pre-meditation and deliberation, due to evidence which suggests to the contrary. They count that as finding someone innocent. Obviously the more wide-spread rumor about the innocence project is that all the people are proven innocent off DNA findings.

You really should stop using the word innocent. Innocent means the person did not do the crime, not guilty means we cannot legally prove the person did the crime beyond a reasonable doubt. There is a huge difference.

No one is ever proven innocent.

For a person who claims to work in the legal system you really don't know your job. People are not guilty until proven innocent, they are innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[Deidre32]

This is true. Some people are just........no good.

Well, we all start out good...and I believe that something happens in people's childhoods, that cause them to turn one way or the other. But, once they hit prison, if they are in fact a sociopath, it will be hard to 'make' them good.

I suppose anyone can change however, if he/she wants to, yes?

 

[JGG]

Texans and Canadians are two different manner of peoples (Canadians have more manners).

Maybe we should just give mandatory etiquette lessons.

 

[JGG]

There are many people who have God's spirit that are willing to help (I'm available).

Help is great, but help to what end? What is the game plan?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Help is great, but help to what end? What is the game plan?

The end game is to make life better. The game plan is to do things the right way, a concept whose time is long overdue.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Maybe we should just give mandatory etiquette lessons.

That would be a good start.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Well, we all start out good...and I believe that something happens in people's childhoods, that cause them to turn one way or the other. But, once they hit prison, if they are in fact a sociopath, it will be hard to 'make' them good.

I suppose anyone can change however, if he/she wants to, yes?

We need a 'triage' system; separate the ones who can be redeemed from those who cannot. We only have so many resources to spend on the problem.

 

[Deidre32]

We need a 'triage' system; separate the ones who can be redeemed from those who cannot. We only have so many resources to spend on the problem.

It's sad though.

 

[fat wee robin]

Because with more freedom comes more crime. You realize
Afganistan has a insanely low incarnation rate compared to all western nations.

And where do they INCARNATE to in Afganistan .I thought they were Muslims ?

 

[ChristJudgeOfAll]

For a person who claims to work in the legal system you really don't know your job. People are not guilty until proven innocent, they are innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

That is exactly what I said, when did I say otherwise, I guess you didn't read what I wrote.

You come in the middle of a argument and you have no idea what is going on. People are alleging we are executing innocent people. WE ARE NOT, BECAUSE NO ONE NEEDS TO PROVE INNOCENCE. Not guilty is not the same as innocence.

Everyone is not guilty, until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. There is no innocence in the legal system.

Not guilty does not = innocent.