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Primodial Soup

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by Big Jase, Dec 23, 2003.

  1. Big Jase

    Big Jase Just A Dude "Big Jase"

    58
    +1
    Christian
    hey ...

    i have a mate and he is always talking about this Primidial Soup.. "alphabetty spergetti" he calls it..where the begining was formed... i just want some more insite into this theory so i can make me own mind up...

    cheers
     
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  2. PhantomLlama

    PhantomLlama Prism Ranger

    +52
    Atheist
    'Primordial Soup' is the name given to the pools of water in the early earth that were filled simple organic compund, which assembled into the first cell-like things. (talk to Lucaspa about protocells, it's very interesting)
     
  3. Big Jase

    Big Jase Just A Dude "Big Jase"

    58
    +1
    Christian
    thanks for that last post.... i know what it is but..i want to know how it got there and how it "evolved" and the rest of that... you know what i mean...

    thanks but yah..really appreicated...

    Big Jase
     
  4. PhantomLlama

    PhantomLlama Prism Ranger

    +52
    Atheist
    It originally got there from simple chemicals like methane, ammonia, etc (commonly formed in conditions like the early earth). The chemicals react with each other using energy from volcanic vents under the sea and lightning strikes, (and sunlight) to form the basics of organic life. (amino acids and such)

    I dont know the details, but this is the general view.
     
  5. Big Jase

    Big Jase Just A Dude "Big Jase"

    58
    +1
    Christian
     
  6. slodge

    slodge New Member

    4
    +0
    hi just wondering what diffrence believing evolution indirectly or creation directly would make to my faith or what diffrence it would make in leading others to Jesus...
    kind of new ere so hello
     
  7. PhantomLlama

    PhantomLlama Prism Ranger

    +52
    Atheist
    Believing in evolution should make no difference to your faith. Many Christians here believe in evolution.

    Believing in evolution is a very helpful thing if want to lead people to Jesus. If you insist on a literal interpretation scientific atheist types like me will reject you because what you say conflicts directly with what we know to be true from our own logic and reason. If you allow evolution in your teaching then this stumbling block has been removed.
     
  8. PhantomLlama

    PhantomLlama Prism Ranger

    +52
    Atheist
    Never heard this before. In that case we are left with other carbon compunds and the deep sea vents.
     
  9. Big Jase

    Big Jase Just A Dude "Big Jase"

    58
    +1
    Christian
    You have to clear that statement up .... christians beleive in evolution but they don't beleive in evolution in creating us as we are today..u know what i'm saying...they don't beleive in evolution as the big bang and then atoms and stuff.....

    kools.....

    Big jase
     
  10. Jet Black

    Jet Black Guest

    +0
    I wish I could say that I had never heard anything as wrong as this. However I have been lietening to creationists for a while, and I have heard some things that are more wrong. That aside, this statement is indeed, very very wrong, and in a competition of wrong things, I think it would get a pretty decent prize.
     
  11. Big Jase

    Big Jase Just A Dude "Big Jase"

    58
    +1
    Christian
    carbon compounds have nothing to do with electricity..... ie lightning....

    cheers brush...
     
  12. Big Jase

    Big Jase Just A Dude "Big Jase"

    58
    +1
    Christian
    prove it...
     
  13. Jet Black

    Jet Black Guest

    +0
    I am not entirely sure what you are saying. there are many christians who believe in the big bang, then atoms and stuff, and then stars and planets and big heavy things, and then complex chemicals, and then selfreplicating chemicals and then simple life and then more complex life and then primates and then us.
     
  14. Jet Black

    Jet Black Guest

    +0
    lightning is caused by the difference in charge between two points, which eventually exceeds a certain value (dependent on the intermittant material) that strips electrons from the material and the charged regions. This makes an ionised plasma, which acts like a wire which allows the two charges to equalise. I have seen lightning in non-methane atmospheres and even produced it myself with the aid of a van de graff generator or, in a more accessible experiment, a hot cat.
     
  15. Bushido216

    Bushido216 Well-Known Member

    +186
    Catholic
    Engaged
    US-Democrat
    Prove it.
     
  16. napajohn

    napajohn Senior Member

    895
    +0
    Non-Denom

    LOL..another atheist teling you how to lead people to Jesus..thats like a KKK saying you know if you really want peace you should accept and tolerate the hate that Al Queda, the Al Sharptons, and KKK preach...an atheist will reject you anyway because they don't believe in God..thats all..evolution is a naturalistic approach to explaining creation without the need for a God...
    Proven..LOL..how?..the evidence and transtion fossils say the opposite..
    Evolutionists repeat their mantra because once the issues are brought out by scientists who question its merits and points its only a matter of time until you see it for what it is: a worldview of the beginning of life on earth..the late Jay Gould became a leading force in teaching that new species were created abruptly ~ 50000 years..why?..because of the lack of the transition fossil record..what no bones of a semi-mammal/dolphin? thats ok will just call
    it punctuated equilibrium...Besides we know that all precambrian rock suggests oxidation meaning the presence of oxygen...but they won't tell you that in your biology class..makes the Miller experiment kinda look stupid.
     
  17. PhantomLlama

    PhantomLlama Prism Ranger

    +52
    Atheist
    As an atheist, I am excellently placed to know what preaching methods make me warm towards Christianity and which don't.

    By your logic no atheist will ever be converted. Think about what you wrote there. And I also find it interesting that you claim to know my mind better that I do.

    If you actually listened to a word people say to you you would know that proof is not required.

    If you actually listened to a word people say to you you would know that evolution has no position on the beginning of life on earth.

    Firstly, a dolphin is a mammal. Secondly, there are many examples of transitional fossils and the fact that you know of none is only testament to your faliure to look.

    References from a peer-reviewed scientific journal please.

    Dont forget to buy your tinfoil hat.
     
  18. gladiatrix

    gladiatrix Card-carrying EAC member

    +348
    Atheist

    No, only you look stupid here because you don't seem to know anything about evolution which does not address how life began on this planet. However, abiogenesis does and there is quite a lot of evidence to support it. Because Big Jase asked about abiogenesis, here's what's the progress of abiogenesis in trying to model conditions on a pre-biotic Earth that would lead to life as we know it in 3 parts............

    PART 1--Overview of Abiogenesis

    Here is what abiogenesis or spontaneous creation (it was an "RNA world") is all about in this animated lecture series from the School of Chemistry, University of Oxford, England:
    {You will need plug-ins for viewing animations and molecules..... can get by without it, but that's up to the reader}

    Abiogenesis/The Prebiotic World and the Evidence(Oparin/Haldane Hypothesis)

    The RNA-World/Oparin-Haldane Hypothesis

    RNA is the only known macromolecule that can both encode genetic information and also act as a biocatalyst. RNA molecules that perform enzymatic functions (biocatalysts) are called ribozymes. One of the most interesting of these ribozymes was discovered by Tom Cech when he discoved a self-splicing RNA in the single celled organism Tetrahymena thermophila. This RNA splice out it's own introns WITHOUT the assistance of proteins.


    A demonstration of Cech's ribozyme go to this WEBSITE and click on the links under the subsection entitled Group I Intron Splicing

    HERE (pdf file) is Cech's lecture to the Nobel Laureate Committees on this discovery (Nobel Prize for chemistry 1989)that gives both a diagram of the splicing and his original research.

    The observation of the above forms the basis for the 'RNA world' model which suggests that both the genetic and enzymatic components of early cells were RNA molecules. There are some problems with the "RNA-world":
    • Making the sugar ribose under prebiotic conditions is problematic (it is unstable, in equilibrium with other anomeric forms, etc.) .
    • Prebiotic conditions make it difficult to make nucleosides
    • The phosphate chemistry utilized to activate RNA nucleotides in present-day living systems is not viewed as feasible under the primitive conditions of the pre-biotic world. However, nucleotide activation can also be based on imidazole chemistry, so this is not an insoluble problem.
    • The 4 bases have to be joined to the sugar ribose, which under natural conditions is unstable. As of now, the only techniques discovered for joining the bases to ribose result in low yields, something unsuitable for the RNA world scenario.
    • Polymerization of the nucleotides into RNA would have been a problem (assembling them so that they actually contained "information").
    • The temperature of a primitive Earth would have made it difficult for RNA (once assembled) to remain stable.
    Does this mean "curtains" for the RNA world scenario? NO. RNA could have "evolved" from other molecules better able to have withstood the harsh conditions of the prebiotic world. Here are a couple of articles on likely candidates for the "Pre-RNA world".......

    1. Leslie Orgel--PNAs as Precursors to an RNA World
    Orgel and his group at the Salk Institute, studied a compound known as peptide nucleic acid (PNA). PNA has the ability to replicate itself and catalyze reactions but is much simpler than RNA. Orgel et al. demonstrated that PNA can act as a template both for its own replication and for the formation of RNA from its subcomponents. (Orgel, Leslie E. The Origin of Life on the Earth p 77-83 Scientific American, October 1994.)

    2. A TNA World? (Synthesis of a chemical relative of RNA as a Possible Candidate for the First Self-Assembling, Self-Replicating Molecules)

    IMO, the following quote from Quetzal, on the Self-replicating molecules thread from the EvC forum summed up the situation as it stands for the "Pre-RNA World.......
    **===>NOTE: This is the "gap" where creationist/IDist God-of-Gaps currently resides............... Of course, if you let things go their way in a real, aqueous "soup", the necessary chemistry is hard to come by (a fact mentioned in the above). However, if you isolate the chemical environment in protected bubbles, this does not happen.

    Life out of magma: a new theory for the origin of life, by Lucido, G.Nuovo Cimento Della Societa Italiana di Fisica D - Condensed matter, Atomic, Molecular and Chemical Physics, Fluids, Plasmas, Biophysics 20(12): 2575-2591; December, 1998
    For the ability of abiogenic proteinoids to self-organize into protocells the reference by Sidney W. Fox:
    The evolutionary significance of phase-separated microsystems. Orig Life. 1976 Jan;7(1):49-68. For more on the potential of Fox's proteinoid microspheres go to my previous post to Ikester'

    Of course, this idea requires "vesicular aggregates". But you can form vesicles on rock surfaces, which then enter the "soup"

    Origin of life. II. From prebiotic replicators to protocells, by Turian, G.Archives des Sciences 52(2): 101-109; August, 1999
    But can you get interesting chemistry in the microvesicles?

    Production of RNA by a Polymerase Protein Encapsulated within Phospholipid-Vesicles, by Chakrabarti, A.C., Breaker, R.R., Joyce, G.F., Deamer, D.W.Journal of Molecular Evolution 39(6): 555-559; 1994
     
  19. napajohn

    napajohn Senior Member

    895
    +0
    Non-Denom
    As a christian, its the Holy spirit who moves on men not the approach...The approach is important, but you have established the parameters already of what is acceptable..that evolution is true..whats next: Jesus is a myth?..
    No thanks not under your conditions

    see above..God moves on people..people do not move people to salvation..
    maybe God has hardened your heart like Pharaoh..know your mind?..don't really care...
     
  20. ForeRunner

    ForeRunner Guest

    +0
    That is entirely possible considering that thre is no historical coraborating evidence outside the Gospels, which were written by Christians. He very well could be the Lao-Tzu of Christianity.
     
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