Primitive Baptists

[Frosty Cook]

I've been listening to Primitive Baptists via podcasts and it's clear they believe in election, however, it also seems they do not believe in salvation through faith, rather, by decree.

Is that correct?

Yours in the Lord,

jm

They do believe in eternal deliverance only by the sovereign grace of God, without any action on mankind's part. Can you explain what you mean by "by decree"?

 

[JM]

They do believe in eternal deliverance only by the sovereign grace of God, without any action on mankind's part. Can you explain what you mean by "by decree"?

...meaning God decreed the elect would be saved without the use of means. (ex. preaching of the Gospel)

 

[Frosty Cook]

Yes that’s true. I’ve heard them often say that God’s elect in the far reaches of the jungle who never hear of Christ are just as saved as those who do hear. Sad to be sure. That is why I am waiting to hear what Will says about it.

They believe the scriptures to teach that All of God's elect are born into this world by their natural birth as totally depraved, in sin by the nature of Adam's sin, and at sometime between their natural birth and their natural death, God quickens them to a spiritual life, Eph 2, believing that the second coming of Christ will be right after the last elect person has been quickened.

They also believe that all of God's elect, at his second coming, will be gathered up from the four winds of the earth and taken to heaven. Matt 24:31.

All of God's elect are born again in the same manner, from Adam until the last person is born into this world, and that is they are quickened with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.Eph 2 & Isaiah 63:11.

I have heard of the example of the original American Indians that are the elect, having never heard the gospel, yet believing and worshiping a higher heavenly being,(God) and believing that when they die, that they will go to a happy hunting place.(heaven), this being evidence that they are of the elect, and will be gathered up at the last day along with the rest of the elect.

This belief gives God total credit for the deliverance of his elect, and eliminates mankind.s actions completely.

 

[Frosty Cook]

Yes they hold to a “time salvation” conditioned on you joining the church. Their gospel is not salvation through faith in Christ alone but of time salvation gained by joining the church.

The salvation=deliverance, (according to Greek interpretation), takes place at the time that the newborn babe in Christ is revealed the understanding of the righteousness of God through the teaching of the gospel, whether they join the church or not. The knowledge is not gained by joining the church. They do not believe that their faith sanctifies them eternally, but that it is Jesus's faith that sanctifies them, Gal 2:16. The natural man, as recorded in 1 Cor 2:14, has no spiritual faith. Spiritual faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit,Gal 5:22, and is not given until God quickens a person to a spiritual life, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Eph 2:8. is Jesus's faith, and not man's.

 

[Frosty Cook]

If I understand them correctly they don't believe you have to evangelize or even believe to be one of the elect.

Eph 2:5 says that we are quickeded together with Christ. We have no righteousness of our own, but have the imputed righteousness of Christ. We are in Christ and Christ is in us.

2 Tim 2:13, If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful, he cannot deny himself (once we have been quickened together with him).

Jesus instructed his Apostles to go and preach to the "lost sheep"(God's elect) of the house of Israel (Jacob, surnamed Israel Gen 32:28.) Jesus did not send them to the unregenerate natural man that cannot discern the things of the Spirit, and thinks them to be foolishness.1 Cor 2:14.

 

[Frosty Cook]

But...above, twin1954 said this: "Yes they hold to a “time salvation” conditioned on you joining the church. Their gospel is not salvation through faith in Christ alone but of time salvation gained by joining the church."

I am confused...

Twin 1954 has stated an untruth, is why you are confused.

 

[Frosty Cook]

I admit it's confusing and I'm getting lost in their definitions. I believe conditional salvation refers to how we view our state before God (ex we need to join the PB church) BUT our eternal salvation takes place in eternity.

I think that

It can be very confusing to be sure. You can ask ten different elders and get ten different answers but it always comes down to the elect being saved with or without faith. To them election is salvation instead of unto salvation through faith. I struggled a lot with what is the Gospel until what the Bible actually says was revealed to me by the Spirit.

Theirs is another gospel sadly, though I still love them. I just can’t call them brethren. It breaks my heart because both of my parents died still believing their false gospel.

To my knowledge of the Primitive Baptist, they do not believe that timely deliverance is caused by joining the church, but takes place right after the babes in Christ mature enough in knowledge and are revealed by the Holy Spirit the truths that are taught in the gospel. whether they join the church or not.

 

[Frosty Cook]

...meaning God decreed the elect would be saved without the use of means. (ex. preaching of the Gospel)

The preaching of the gospel can deliver (save) a person as they sojourn here in this world, but the hearing of the gospel has nothing to do with a person's eternal deliverance.

The natural, unregenerate, person cannot discern the things of the Spirit, and thinks them to be foolishness 1 Cor 2:14. That is why Jesus instructed his apostles to go and preach to the "lost sheep" of the house of Israel (Jacob, surname Israel). All Israel is not of Israel, Rom 9:6.

 

[JM]

The preaching of the gospel can deliver (save) a person as they sojourn here in this world, but the hearing of the gospel has nothing...

The preaching of the word is the means God has chosen to call His elect. Those who do not hear the Gospel will never be saved.

The natural, unregenerate, person cannot discern the things of the Spirit, and thinks them to be foolishness 1 Cor 2:14.

Right, that's why regeneration precedes faith.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[Hazelelponi]

The preaching of the word is the means God has chosen to call His elect. Those who do not hear the Gospel will never be saved

I think people can go too far either way on this. On the one hand your declaring God impotent without man's assistance, and on the other your saying God never decreed man to do anything.

Both are wrong positions.

I've taken it to mean that if God wants someone saved He doesn't "need" man to help Him do so.

This doesn't mean don't preach the Gospel, but God's not impotent if man doesn't do so either because He is indeed a sovereign God.

Consider also Jeremiah 3:14 - "I will choose you - one from a town and two from a family - and bring you to Zion."

If man's preaching is involved in this bringing, is man's preaching man's? Or is it done under God's authority and therefore God's bringing?

The Disciples/Apostles were sent out, but that simply means God decreed it so and all praise is still belonging to God for the bringing.

This is clearly seen in the elders in heaven when casting their crowns at Jesus' feet... they clearly saw nothing they did as being by their own doing even though Jesus Himself thought them worthy of reward.

 

[Frosty Cook]

I think people can go too far either way on this. On the one hand your declaring God impotent without man's assistance, and on the other your saying God never decreed man to do anything.

Both are wrong positions.

I've taken it to mean that if God wants someone saved He doesn't "need" man to help Him do so.

This doesn't mean don't preach the Gospel, but God's not impotent if man doesn't do so either because He is indeed a sovereign God.

Consider also Jeremiah 3:14 - "I will choose you - one from a town and two from a family - and bring you to Zion."

If man's preaching is involved in this bringing, is man's preaching man's? Or is it done under God's authority and therefore God's bringing?

The Disciples/Apostles were sent out, but that simply means God decreed it so and all praise is still belonging to God for the bringing.

This is clearly seen in the elders in heaven when casting their crowns at Jesus' feet... they clearly saw nothing they did as being by their own doing even though Jesus Himself thought them worthy of reward.

I would go a step farther, and say that God's purpose for his called elders, is to preach to God's sheep. (his sheep hear his voice, if they are not his sheep they do not hear his voice) It would do no good to preach to the unregenerate natural man that cannot discern the things of the Spirit, and thinks such things to be foolishness, 1 Cor 2:14.

 

[Frosty Cook]

The preaching of the word is the means God has chosen to call His elect. Those who do not hear the Gospel will never be saved.



Right, that's why regeneration precedes faith.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

But, don't you believe that a person has to be already saved in order to hear the gospel?

 

[Hazelelponi]

I would go a step farther, and say that God's purpose for his called elders, is to preach to God's sheep. (his sheep hear his voice, if they are not his sheep they do not hear his voice) It would do no good to preach to the unregenerate natural man that cannot discern the things of the Spirit, and thinks such things to be foolishness, 1 Cor 2:14.

How can we judge who will or who won't accept the message?

As Jesus said to the 72, if they don't receive you or hear your message shake the dust off your sandals as you leave that house or city.

If calamity is coming and we do nothing to warn, the death is on us for not warning (see Ezekiel 33:6)

 

[Frosty Cook]

How can we judge who will or who won't accept the message?

As Jesus said to the 72, if they don't receive you or hear your message shake the dust off your sandals as you leave that house or city.

If calamity is coming and we do nothing to warn, the death is on us for not warning (see Ezekiel 33:6)

Ezekiel was a priest of the household of Jacob, surname Israel, which is the church that Jesus set up when he was on earth. All Israel is not of Israel, Rom 9:6. Jacob/Israel is representative of the elect, Rom 9:11.

The "wicked" mentioned in Ezek 33 are regenerated children of God who have lost their relationship with God by their lust after the things of the world. Ezekiel's duty as a watchman over the church, it to warn the wicked to repent to regain their fellowship with God.

Death, according to Greek, means "separation". When we "backslide", or sin, we separate ourselves (die) from our fellowship with God, until we repent. Our disobedience does not nullify our eternal inheritance.

 

[Frosty Cook]

How can we judge who will or who won't accept the message?

As Jesus said to the 72, if they don't receive you or hear your message shake the dust off your sandals as you leave that house or city.

If calamity is coming and we do nothing to warn, the death is on us for not warning (see Ezekiel 33:6)

Save, saved, salvation, are words in the scriptures that are misquoted according to the context. According to Greek interpretation save=deliver, saved=delivered, salvation=deliverance.

We are instructed in the scriptures to not try to determine who the elect are. God's called elders are to preach to the visible church, and God draws and adds to the church daily such as should be "saved" ("delivered" as they sojourn here in this world from believing a false doctrine). Acts 2:44-47.

All of those, of God's elect, that are preaching and believing in false doctrines have their eternal salvation (deliverance) secured by Christ's death on the cross.

The two gates depicted in Matt 7 harmonizes with these truths. The straight gate represents the visible church that is preaching the truths of Christ's doctrine, and are enjoying that good and abundant "life" as they live here on earth. ("life" in this scripture does not reference "eternal life")

The wide gate are those who are preaching a false doctrine, and suffer destructions because of it, but still have their eternal inheritance.

 

[Frosty Cook]

Save, saved, salvation, are words in the scriptures that are misquoted according to the context. According to Greek interpretation save=deliver, saved=delivered, salvation=deliverance.

We are instructed in the scriptures to not try to determine who the elect are. God's called elders are to preach to the visible church, and God draws and adds to the church daily such as should be "saved" ("delivered" as they sojourn here in this world from believing a false doctrine). Acts 2:44-47.

All of those, of God's elect, that are preaching and believing in false doctrines have their eternal salvation (deliverance) secured by Christ's death on the cross.

The two gates depicted in Matt 7 harmonizes with these truths. The straight gate represents the visible church that is preaching the truths of Christ's doctrine, and are enjoying that good and abundant "life" as they live here on earth. ("life" in this scripture does not reference "eternal life")

The wide gate are those who are preaching a false doctrine, and suffer destructions because of it, but still have their eternal inheritance.

I, also, believe that Eze 10, about a wheel within a wheel, harmonizes with Matt 7:13-14.

 

[JM]

But, don't you believe that a person has to be already saved in order to hear the gospel?

A persons justification is from eternity and since there is no succession of time in the mind of God sinners are viewed as saved by God through the virtue of the Covenant of Redemption. From our perspective in time we know we are Christ's by faith. What you are suggesting destroys the biblical idea that we are justified by Christ alone through faith.

Regeneration precedes faith and the preaching of the Gospel always follows regeneration.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[Frosty Cook]

Yes they hold to a “time salvation” conditioned on you joining the church. Their gospel is not salvation through faith in Christ alone but of time salvation gained by joining the church.

The Primitive baptist do not believe that you have to join the church to be saved (delivered) here in time.

 

[Frosty Cook]

A persons justification is from eternity and since there is no succession of time in the mind of God sinners are viewed as saved by God through the virtue of the Covenant of Redemption. From our perspective in time we know we are Christ's by faith. What you are suggesting destroys the biblical idea that we are justified by Christ alone through faith.

Regeneration precedes faith and the preaching of the Gospel always follows regeneration.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

I believe that God's elect are justified by Christ's faith (Gal 2:16).

 

[Frosty Cook]

The preaching of the word is the means God has chosen to call His elect. Those who do not hear the Gospel will never be saved.



Right, that's why regeneration precedes faith.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Only those that have been born again are able to hear, and believe the gospel. Hearing and believing the gospel can deliver (save) the born again here in time, by obeying God's commandments. Understanding the gospel is not the cause of ones eternal salvation.