Hi Mark,
Thanks so much for the great dialog so far. <snip> God bless you friend.
Greetings Athanasius,
I too find our discussion most agreeable, but must apologize also for being so long away from this thread. It seems that both you and I are gaining much as we explore this topic; just a few hundred years ago such a discussion would not have been possible, not only from the point of technology, but in respect to the sociopolitical ecclesiastic climates of the times. We are blessed not only in sharing our differences and similarities, but also that we have been enabled to do so by the grace of God.
Regarding the CCC; it is a convenient and exhaustive resource, so it's a no-brainer that one
must consult it. The alternative is to go to GT and read what protestants post about Catholics; for they truly know it all
. Jack Chick would be another alternative to the CCC... Not! So for now, for me, my sources are the CCC and Athanasius.
Well so far I have learned some really cool stuff about Lutheran theology I never knew. <snip> ...THE work of Christ through the Holy Spirit applying those graces from the cross in the laver of regeneration in time and space to a person who is baptized(TItus 3:5-7).
Likewise regarding the Catholic Church. It is true; Sacraments and Sacramental acts are what God does; sacrificial acts are what we do. One difference is that in Lutheran theology, sacrificial acts do not earn merit, nor do they make one a Christian. Rather they are the fruits of one's faith; they are done because one is a Christian; this ties into the doctrine of Sola Gracia, which actually ties into any discussion of the Sacraments and Sacramental acts being means of Grace.
THE work of Christ through the Holy Spirit applying those graces from the cross in the laver of regeneration in time and space to a person who is baptized(TItus 3:5-7)
This sums it up perfectly, and not only baptism but also in the Eucharist.
This opens up all kinds of new possibilities in dialog if you all believe the same thing. This is big and could lead to a closer view of the Holy sacrifice of the Mass as we both see Christ as the principle "Actor" working through the minister in the sacraments so they are His work and his way of applying the paschal mystery to us, not ours. But that is another discussion that we could eventually talk about later(hopefully).
Indeed it does. Lutheran theologians tend to avoid the word "sacrifice" when speaking of the Mass as such is all to often misunderstood (you have been to GT and have seen these misunderstandings stating that the Catholic Church re sacrifices Christ at each and every Mass; my understanding is that it is not so) The participation of the congregation and Pastor/Priest in the Mass is a sacrificial act on our part, for we
are doing 'stuff' when we take part. It is also (I hate this word, again because of the misunderstandings that reformed protestantism attach to it) a 'memorial' of Christs sacrifice; not a re-sacrifice but
the once and for all sacrifice of Christ on the Cross at Calvary in the timeless eternity of God's creation. From one liturgy of Lutheran Mass following the Consecration (and, if it is the custom of the Congregation/Pastor, following the elevation) "For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you do show the Lord's death until He comes".
I see there is an opportunity for me to clear up an innocent misconception that several people seem to have about the Catholic Church. We do not see Peter being directly responsible for all priesthood or its authority. Only the see of Rome. Priesthood in the Catholic understanding comes to the Church by Christ the high priest(Heb 3:1) who we believed ordained not just Peter but the twelve too at the last supper when he said "do this in memory of me" or another translation as the fathers understood it is "offer this as my memorial sacrifice"(Lk 22:19). This language is sacrificial and language of ordination that reflects the Old covenant ordinations of ministerial priest(Lev 8:31:34) which of course were separate from the universal priesthood of the Old covenant(Ex 19:6). We believe therefore that in those passages Jesus show us that He that called out and gave only to His 12 apostles to do(not the whole church or universal priesthood) this type of ministerial priestly authority. So high and ministerial priesthood comes from Christ and is a sharing in Christ priesthood which he gave to all the apostles to teach. sanctify, and govern, and not just Peter alone. This to us is made clear in passages like Matt 18:15-20 which Christ in our understanding is paralleling the apostles with the priest and judges of Deut 17: 1-13 and uses similar langue to show that.
Thanks for the clarification regarding the Apostles and the Churches. With but a few exceptions, Lutheranism is "Western" and Lutheran Churches that have maintained "Apostolic Succession" in the classical Catholic sense, share the line back to St. Peter, and ultimately to Jesus Christ and as does the Catholic Church.
When discussion theology, we need also to be mindful that the Chruch Militant (Catholic and non Catholic alike) continues to mature. The angles from which we view the same things are often different, and the words we may be using to describe similar things may be different because we have been 'physically" separated by time and space for some 500 years. While, as I stated previously, the office of the Holy Ministry is, from our perspective, part and parcel of the priesthood of all believers; however, not all believers receive the calling to that office, the vocation of Pastor. Every called and ordained Pastor is part of the the priesthood of all believers; however, few in the priesthood of all believers are called to the office of the Holy Ministry. Here we see the differences in perspective and differences in words. In practice, the "office of the Holy Ministry" and "Ministerial Priesthood" are one and the same; to the eye of the outside observer, one would see no difference. Catholic or Lutheran, the guy is at the front of the Church, the guy administers the sacraments, the guy preaches the gospel; and more often than not, the guy wears the same vestments.
Matthew 18:15 directs how all Christians should deal with conflict; when this fails, yes, we believe it is the Church (with the Pastor acting on their behalf. In our tradition, it would be the Pastor and if the congregation directed, the 'elders' would be included (lay deacons) (I have served as such in two congregations where we were mandated to support the Pastor on matters of discipline).
These passages, certainly do support, or at the very least do not conflict with the Christ centered Apostolic model; but neither does it conflict with a "Congregationalist" form of polity. Again, we stand with the Bible and hold that Christ is the High Priest; likewise we concur with the Biblical doctrine of the Priesthood of all Believers. But, for lack of a better term the office of the Holy Ministry is the focal point of the Priesthood of all believers, the epitome that priesthood. So in effect one could say with respect to the office of the Holy Ministry and the believers priesthood, that it is a matter of vocation. The feet washing in the NT is indicative of the aspect of servitude not only to Christ, but to the Church of those in authority; the passages in Exodus, to me, speak more of submission to God's will, and the ordained Priests vocation to serve God.
At any rate most people do not realize that the Catholic church teaches that all the apostles had a governing and priestly authority by virtue of their ordination.
There is no dispute on this matter; nor is there any dispute that Peter was (to borrow a phrase) first among equals regading the other Apostles; and their authority was from Christ. Nor is there any dispute of the validity of Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and other Churches that have retained the classic polity of Apostolic Succession. Nor is there any dispute regarding the validity of Anglican and liberal (non Confessional) Lutheran ordination (with the big exception of female ordination, ordination by female Bishops, and the ordination of practicing, unrepentant homosexuals).
For us Lutherans; each Pastor is a Bishop of his Congregation, and a Bishop in Christ's Church (as was the case in many situations in the early Chruch). For us, apostolicity centers on the maintenance, adherence, and proliferation of the teaching of the Apostles. In our teaching it is Christ who ordains through the Church Corporate (priesthood of all believers, who ordains through it's Bishops; both titular and pastoral.
Those offices of high and ministerial priesthood will depend on if that office can go back to any of the apostles who we believe were made new priest and judges of the new covenant and who handed on those offices to their successors.
We also believe that the Pastoral office does go back to the Apostles, and ultimately to Christ; and that while our procedure is slightly different, and our Synod (with a few exceptions) does not have titular Bishops; the succession of Clergy has been maintained through the Congregational Bishops (Pastors).
So we do not really need to address the Papal office... <snip> It is interesting though I was reading through Jerome that the smalcald articles quote and in that very writing he mentions the Bishops and Presbyters and basically calls them priests which I know he saw separate from the universal priesthood of all believers.
Again, from our perspective, not seperate, but a different vocation/calling than that of the laity.
We should come back to the Pope though and do a dialog on his office in another thread. Its very very Jewish in nature and very clear in our understanding from early Church history and scripture. A lot of good stuff there in history and scripture. I wrote a 9 page paper once on it in undergrad. But that is another dialog for the future.
One I'm not sure I want to tackle.
Woe to them! For they walk in the way of Cain, and abandon themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam's error, and perish in Korah's rebellion. (Jude 11)
You have a good point, however, Luther, scholar that he was, it would be no stretch of the imagination to assume that he did not overlook these parts of God's Holy Word. While we do not want to get into the office of the Papacy in this discussion; we can not overlook history. Luther's beef was not with the office of the Bishop of Rome; his beef was with both the abuse of authority and the spiritual neglect of the Church which was His charge; these are historical facts. Had the Pope gave Luther his ear the way that the Pope at the time of St. Francis did for Francis, it is likely that we would not even be having this conversation.
<snip>But what is real is that even in the new covenant we can perish in the sins of Korah.
Yes, the sins of Korah was the rejection of authority; in Luther's day, Pope Leo had rejected the authority given to him; namely his Pastoral duties to serve his Chruch. I believe that the sins of Kora are rejecting Apostolic Authority (Teaching, as found in Scripture), and as with Pope Leo, rejecting that authority with which he was entrusted; the dereliction of of his obligations, and the misuse of his authority.
I found your last post most enlightening; I hope that I have been able to shed a bit of light on the variations within our confessions in this post as well.
Blessings and peace dear friend.