Pride Month in Israel

Carl Emerson

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This opinion piece is an interesting read.

The author has expressed the issue very well and it is notable that in modern Jewish thinking the Torah stands firm in the face of this barrage of deviant thought and action that threatens young minds and lives.

 
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ThatRobGuy

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I would tend to agree that there is some emotional blackmail going on with this subject.

While I do think that discrimination (and the increased rates of depression that follows) contributes to increased suicide rates, the problem is that we can't structure society around "everyone has to do things the way this person wants, otherwise they may commit suicide and the blood will be on your hands"

The most notable examples are when people refer to gender transitions as "life saving affirming care", or use rhetoric targeting skeptical/resistant parents like "well, you can either have an alive daughter or a dead son"

We wouldn't place an imposition on anyone like that or use the same rhetoric when talking about a myriad of other social scenarios that may lead a person to be at an increased suicide attempt rate.

For instance...

For a person who's spouse or partner leaves or divorces them, their suicide rate is triple that of a person who's not in that situation.

If there were women who were unhappy in their marriages, would we badger them into staying in those situations with rhetoric like labelling compelled marriage counseling as "life saving relationship affirming care", or would we as a society tell them "you can have an alive husband or a dead ex-husband" (as to imply that they have some sort of duty to stay in an unhappy relationship and if they don't and he commits suicide, it's their fault for not going along with it)? My guess is no.
 
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USincognito

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I remember watching a documentary about gays in Judaism, specifically the Orthodox. One subject was a young English guy and his parents thought sending him to Israel would set him straight.

Cut to a massive Pride celebration in Tel Aviv.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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For instance...

For a person who's spouse or partner leaves or divorces them, their suicide rate is triple that of a person who's not in that situation.

If there were women who were unhappy in their marriages, would we badger them into staying in those situations with rhetoric like labelling compelled marriage counseling as "life saving relationship affirming care", or would we as a society tell them "you can have an alive husband or a dead ex-husband" (as to imply that they have some sort of duty to stay in an unhappy relationship and if they don't and he commits suicide, it's their fault for not going along with it)? My guess is no.
The problem with this analogy is that you're trying to equate allowing a person to seek treatment for their own medical condition with forcing a person to engage in an activity that affects their own life in order to make someone else happy.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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The problem with this analogy is that you're trying to equate allowing a person to seek treatment for their own medical condition with forcing a person to engage in an activity that affects their own life in order to make someone else happy.
So you don't think it impacts a parent's life if something like this is going on with their 11 or 12 year old?

Especially in some of the school districts where teachers are keeping it secret from the parents and they're finding out through scenarios like this:
(the article is from the NY Times, this is a paywall-free affiliate)


Not every parent is on-board with the somewhat rapid pace at which this is happening, and they certainly don't like being left out of the loop.

And while it's true that what we're talking about is a "medical situation", it's far from having a consensus for the proper course of action.

Something being medical doesn't give a loud vocal minority carte blanche to insist that everyone else has to go along with their preferred approach, else "be labelled as selfish monsters"


For instance, there's a loud vocal minority advocating for bariatric drugs and procedures for people as young as 14. If a parent wanted to pump the brakes and say "hold on, I don't think we should rush into this, there are other avenues available at this juncture", it wouldn't be fair to throw a bunch of stats in their face about how "overweight people are bullied and that leads to suicide" and "if you don't let your child get the gastric bypass and take ozempic, you must not care if they die of a heart attack at 35"

I think that's the kind of stuff the author is referring to when they talk about emotional blackmail
 
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HARK!

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This opinion piece is an interesting read.

The author has expressed the issue very well and it is notable that in modern Jewish thinking the Torah stands firm in the face of this barrage of deviant thought and action that threatens young minds and lives.

I found this portion of the article to be an eye opener:

The truth instead is that mental illness is a prime cause of suicide — not community rejection of deviant values alien to Torah — and that the higher LG(B)T(QIA)+ suicide rates stem from the incidence of mental illness and related clinical depression — and not from societal discrimination and belittling. The official data support the truth.

 
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RocksInMyHead

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So you don't think it impacts a parent's life if something like this is going on with their 11 or 12 year old?
Not in anywhere near the same manner that someone is affected by being forced to stay in an unhappy marriage, no. Parents worry about their kids - that's normal - but your kid being transgender doesn't (or at least shouldn't) fundamentally alter your relationship with them. They're still your kid.
Especially in some of the school districts where teachers are keeping it secret from the parents and they're finding out through scenarios like this:
(the article is from the NY Times, this is a paywall-free affiliate)

Not every parent is on-board with the somewhat rapid pace at which this is happening, and they certainly don't like being left out of the loop.
The primary reason for this is the potential for abuse. There's a difference between saying "hold on, let's not rush into this" and completely rejecting or dismissing your child's feelings. There's definitely room to train school staff to recognize those differences when a student comes to them (because some kids may interpret "lets not rush into this" as a rejection), but I can understand why schools might want to err on the side of caution.

Broadly speaking, the law does allow teenagers some degree of bodily autonomy, so I don't see it as strange that parents would not need to be identified if their child was experimenting with a different gender identity. Many states allow girls to access birth control without parental permission, for example.
For instance, there's a loud vocal minority advocating for bariatric drugs and procedures for people as young as 14. If a parent wanted to pump the brakes and say "hold on, I don't think we should rush into this, there are other avenues available at this juncture", it wouldn't be fair to throw a bunch of stats in their face about how "overweight people are bullied and that leads to suicide" and "if you don't let your child get the gastric bypass and take ozempic, you must not care if they die of a heart attack at 35"

I think that's the kind of stuff the author is referring to when they talk about emotional blackmail
Better analogy, though - for the most part - teenagers are not undergoing surgical gender confirmation procedures (especially without parental permission).
 
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RocksInMyHead

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I found this portion of the article to be an eye opener:

The truth instead is that mental illness is a prime cause of suicide — not community rejection of deviant values alien to Torah — and that the higher LG(B)T(QIA)+ suicide rates stem from the incidence of mental illness and related clinical depression — and not from societal discrimination and belittling. The official data support the truth.
Gee, I wonder why the LGBTQ community suffers from higher rates of depression. Might it have something to do with, I dunno, societal discrimination and belittling? Yeesh, the cluelessness is maddening.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Not in anywhere near the same manner that someone is affected by being forced to stay in an unhappy marriage, no. Parents worry about their kids - that's normal - but your kid being transgender doesn't (or at least shouldn't) fundamentally alter your relationship with them. They're still your kid.
So you don't think finding out "your son actually identifies as a girl", and finding out that their 7th grade teacher knew that before you, and you found that out via reading a different name at the top of your child's homework isn't seriously "life disrupting" or jarring, even more so than a divorce?
The primary reason for this is the potential for abuse. There's a difference between saying "hold on, let's not rush into this" and completely rejecting or dismissing your child's feelings. There's definitely room to train school staff to recognize those differences when a student comes to them (because some kids may interpret "lets not rush into this" as a rejection), but I can understand why schools might want to err on the side of caution.

Broadly speaking, the law does allow teenagers some degree of bodily autonomy, so I don't see it as strange that parents would not need to be identified if their child was experimenting with a different gender identity. Many states allow girls to access birth control without parental permission, for example.
Per the story in the NY Times article, it sounds like the parents were supportive, but they were really upset that they weren't kept in the loop.

With regards to childrens' feelings...not giving them everything they want shouldn't be considered synonymous with "ignoring their feelings". Had that been true, then all those times I told my parents "you hate me!" (because they wouldn't let me to go parties at other kids houses when their parents were out of town) would've been valid, obviously they were not. They simply didn't want me smoking weed and drinking at some random person's house absent of any and all adult supervision.

Children (especially during adolescence) are prone to over-reaction, emotional response, impulsiveness, and "act first, think later" mentality.

There's a reason why we don't let 15 year olds drink, drive, vote, get tattoos, own a gun, join the military, get married, etc...
(and those are all less impactful and more reversable than a gender transition)

The premise that "they're absolutely sure, and they know for sure what they want" at that age is a questionable assertion, and people are right to be skeptical. That's not to say that some trans people and non-hetero people didn't know exactly who they were and exactly how they felt and that carried into adulthood...obviously you can find cases like that.

But people in the 13-17 age range are prone to fads or what they think will make them rebellious or cool. The statistics would suggest that in present time, a 14 year old claiming to be trans is just as likely to grow out of it as a kid who want to be an astronaut when they grow up.

Better analogy, though - for the most part - teenagers are not undergoing surgical gender confirmation procedures (especially without parental permission).
it doesn't have to be full blown surgical in order to ruffle some feathers. The parents in the NY Times article sounded pretty progressive, but also were still a little put off about being kept in the dark about what was going on with their kid.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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So you don't think finding out "your son actually identifies as a girl", and finding out that their 7th grade teacher knew that before you, and you found that out via reading a different name at the top of your child's homework isn't seriously "life disrupting" or jarring, even more so than a divorce?
I really don't. And I'll remind you that your original analogy was that people should be prevented from divorcing (i.e be forced to live with someone whom they fear/despise/can't stand/don't get along with/etc) in order to save their spouse's feelings.

That's not to say that it wouldn't be jarring at all, but it's a very different kind of jarring. If I heard that my son told his teacher about his gender identity before me, then I would feel as though I failed to instill trust in my child. It would mean that I would have some serious self-reflection to do, and I would be worried, but it wouldn't change the fact that I love my son. I would not feel forced to live with someone I feared or despised.
With regards to childrens' feelings...not giving them everything they want shouldn't be considered synonymous with "ignoring their feelings". Had that been true, then all those times I told my parents "you hate me!" (because they wouldn't let me to go parties at other kids houses when their parents were out of town) would've been valid, obviously they were not. They simply didn't want me smoking weed and drinking at some random person's house absent of any and all adult supervision.

Children (especially during adolescence) are prone to over-reaction, emotional response, impulsiveness, and "act first, think later" mentality.

There's a reason why we don't let 15 year olds drink, drive, vote, get tattoos, own a gun, join the military, get married, etc...
(and those are all less impactful and more reversable than a gender transition)

The premise that "they're absolutely sure, and they know for sure what they want" at that age is a questionable assertion, and people are right to be skeptical. That's not to say that some trans people and non-hetero people didn't know exactly who they were and exactly how they felt and that carried into adulthood...obviously you can find cases like that.
As I said, there's room for training/improvement in the policy. If it's possible for school staff to determine whether or not there's any actual danger associated with informing the parents, then perhaps part of the counseling program could include a plan to "come out" to their parents. But like I said, there's a good reason why the policy exists. I'd rather have a hundred parents upset about not being told that their kids are trans than one or two kids assaulted and/or thrown out on the street because of their identity.
But people in the 13-17 age range are prone to fads or what they think will make them rebellious or cool. The statistics would suggest that in present time, a 14 year old claiming to be trans is just as likely to grow out of it as a kid who want to be an astronaut when they grow up.
And they can grow out of it. The school isn't going to prescribe puberty blockers or schedule them for gender confirmation surgery.

I'm not sure I'd categorically state that the ratio of kids who actually turn out to be trans is equivalent to the ratio of kids to who actually end up becoming astronauts though.
it doesn't have to be full blown surgical in order to ruffle some feathers. The parents in the NY Times article sounded pretty progressive, but also were still a little put off about being kept in the dark about what was going on with their kid.
I'm aware. You're the person who chose to use a full-blown surgical procedure as an analogy though. The point is that I can understand parents being wary of being forced to consent to irreversible or invasive medical procedures for their child. But that's not really comparable in severity to their child choosing to change the name and pronouns they use at school.
 
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ranunculus

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Gee, I wonder why the LGBTQ community suffers from higher rates of depression. Might it have something to do with, I dunno, societal discrimination and belittling? Yeesh, the cluelessness is maddening.
Gesturing at the high suicide rate among the queer community because of non-acceptance by society, "See, this just goes to show we should not accept them into society!".
 
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Maria Billingsley

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This opinion piece is an interesting read.

The author has expressed the issue very well and it is notable that in modern Jewish thinking the Torah stands firm in the face of this barrage of deviant thought and action that threatens young minds and lives.

This article is deceptive. It is well known that shunning is practiced in some Orthodox Jewish circles. Some interesting facts.

"The practice of shunning is known as cherem in Hebrew. It is a form of social and religious ostracism that is used to punish people who violate the rules of Orthodox Judaism. When a person is placed under cherem, they are cut off from their community and their family. They are not allowed to participate in religious services or to socialize with other Orthodox Jews."

We all know that shunning is a form of abuse thus can lead to suicidal thoughts and ultimately acted upon. Watch this movie, "Prayers for Bobby".

Blessings
 
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HARK!

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We all know that shunning is a form of abuse
No more than the corrective measure of being isolated in prison. Certainly you aren't suggesting that lawlessness should go unchecked, because correction might hurt someone's feelings?
thus can lead to suicidal thoughts and ultimately acted upon.
That happens in prison too.
 
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