PreWrath Movie

[JM]

Looks interesting.

 

[Marilyn C]

The Body of Christ will rule and reign with Christ from His throne in the highest realm. (Rev. 3: 21) They will be the court that judges the world system and fallen angels. (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3) And that is why the Body of Christ is brought to maturity (Eph. 4: 13) and goes to the third heaven BEFORE THE TRIBULATION.

I`ll stand on God`s word and not so called `church fathers.`

Marilyn.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Looks interesting.

I am post-trib, pre-wrath 1st century... 70AD

Prewrath Movie Website – From Alan Kurschner and Chris White

The currently untitled Prewrath film project is being produced by Dr. Alan Kurschner from Eschatos Ministries and Chris White.

We hope to accomplish several things with this film.

• To produce the best film explaining the prewrath rapture position possible.
• To update the prophecy community on the state of the rapture debate.
• To interview scholars and other authorities for their point of view.
• To produce and include high quality computer graphics for prewrath.
• To raise awareness among pretribulationalist about the problems with the view in a loving way.
• To use promos and ad buys to bring more exposure to prewrath in general.

About the Author | ESCHATOS MINISTRIES
About the Author

Alan E. Kurschner, Ph.D., is dedicated to the mission of proclaiming the gospel message of the Christian faith with the hope and promise of the second coming of Jesus.

Dr. Kurschner teaches eschatology from a futurist, premillennial, and prewrath perspective and is the author of Antichrist Before the Day of the Lord: What Every Christian Needs to Know about the Return of Christ. He is also the host of the popular podcast The Biblical Prophecy Program™ and teaches Greek at the Center for Learning Biblical Greek.

Education

• Ph.D. McMaster Divinity College (“The Millennial Binding of Satan: A Linguistic Approach to Revelation 19:11—20:6.” Ph.D. diss., 2019.)
• M.A. Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
• B.A. The University of Wisconsin–Eau Claire

Research Interests

• Greek linguistics
• Book of Revelation and eschatology
• The Gospels and the life of Jesus
• Hermeneutics

Professional Memberships

• Society of Biblical Literature
• Evangelical Theological Society
• Institute for Biblical Research

Other Interests

• Northern Wisconsin outdoors, Wisconsin history, strolling cemeteries
• Snowshoeing, bushcraft, butterfly gardens, prairie grasses, native meadows, boreal forests, ponds and brooks

Prewrath Movie Project (Trailer)

October 28, 2019 by Dr. Alan E. Kurschner

I am excited to announce that Chris White and I are teaming up to produce a professionally produced prewrath film. We are confident that this will be a game changer for prewrath in terms of an alternative to pretribulation documentaries and movies. … [Continue reading]

Public Debate Challenge for an Established Pretribulation Author on the Interpretation of the Word PROTON in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Alan E. Kurschner

Dr. Alan E. Kurschner
Does the Appearing (Epiphaneia) of Christ Occur Seven Years After the Pretrib Rapture?
October 18, 2019 by Dr. Alan E. Kurschner

Yesterday, I critiqued the pretribulation belief that claims the revelation (apokalypsis) of Christ will occur, not at the rapture, but when Jesus comes “with his saints” for the battle of Armageddon. Similarly, pretribulationists make the same claim about the appearing of Christ, that it will not take place at the rapture but at the end […]
=====================
Nowhere To Run with Chris White

 

[BABerean2]

and goes to the third heaven BEFORE THE TRIBULATION.

A description of the gathering of the Church is found at the end of 1 Thessalonians chapter 4.
The timing of the event is found in chapter 5.
The words "we", and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove the two chapters are connected.

.

 

[BABerean2]

Looks interesting.

It is good to see an alternative to the Pre-trib view being offered to the public.
I used to hold to the Pre-wrath view after reading Marvin Rosenthal's book.

However, there is no 7 year tribulation period in the Bible.
It can be produced by adding together two of the references to the 42 months in the Book of Revelation, or by taking Daniel 9:27 out of its New Covenant context.

The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
Instead, it is a series of overlapping visions given to John on the Island of Patmos.

.

 

[Berean Tim]

Looks interesting.

Looking forward to this. I've been following Alan and Chris for sometime now

 

[Steve_K]

When is this being released?

 

[Davy]

All I have to say is this.

The explanation in post #3 only shows how deep man can go in creating his own eschatology system.

God's written Word does not show a 'rapture' prior to the "day of the Lord".

The day of God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked happens on the last day of this present world, as written in Revelation 16:15-17. It is linked with the event of 2 Peter 3:10 with God's consuming fire burning the rudiments of this world off God's green earth, and Peter showed there that is on the "day of the Lord".

In Rev.16:15, Jesus is still warning His Church on earth during the 6th Vial timing, warning that He comes "as a thief", linking the day of His coming to gather His Church with what Paul taught in 1 Thess.5 saying the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night".

Thusly:
1. Jesus comes "as a thief"
2. the "day of the Lord" happens on the last day.
3. the "day of the Lord" comes "as a thief in the night"
-----------------------------------------------------------
Result: Jesus comes on the "day of the Lord", the LAST DAY when a sudden destruction happens upon the wicked, that is the day when Jesus gathers His Church.

 

[Marilyn C]

All I have to say is this.

The explanation in post #3 only shows how deep man can go in creating his own eschatology system.

God's written Word does not show a 'rapture' prior to the "day of the Lord".

The day of God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked happens on the last day of this present world, as written in Revelation 16:15-17. It is linked with the event of 2 Peter 3:10 with God's consuming fire burning the rudiments of this world off God's green earth, and Peter showed there that is on the "day of the Lord".

In Rev.16:15, Jesus is still warning His Church on earth during the 6th Vial timing, warning that He comes "as a thief", linking the day of His coming to gather His Church with what Paul taught in 1 Thess.5 saying the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night".

Thusly:
1. Jesus comes "as a thief"
2. the "day of the Lord" happens on the last day.
3. the "day of the Lord" comes "as a thief in the night"
-----------------------------------------------------------
Result: Jesus comes on the "day of the Lord", the LAST DAY when a sudden destruction happens upon the wicked, that is the day when Jesus gathers His Church.

1 Thess. 5: 4 `BUT you brethren, are NOT in darkness, so that this day should overtake you as a thief.`

Israel was in partial darkness when the Lord told them about coming as a thief, however now that the Lord is at the right hand of the Father (in the Godhead) He tells His Body that they are NOT in darkness and that Day will NOT overtake them.

 

[iamlamad]

Looks interesting.

Prewrath is truth, in that the rapture will surely come before wrath, but pretrib is far better truth, because Jesus will come for His bride before any part of the 70th week.

In other words, prewrath was in error when Van Kampen and Rosenthal first started it. They mistakenly thought that the signs in the sun and moon AFTER the trib. was the very same signs seen at the 6th seal. So they had to rearrange most of Revelation to make it fit. If they had realized that the signs in the sun and moon after the tribulation was speaking of total darkness, and neither the sun or moon being visible - while both the sun and moon are SEEN at the 6th seal, but the sun appears black, as seen during a total eclipse of the sun, and the moon appears blood red, as it appears during a total lunar eclipse - if they had understood this, neither of them would hare ruined their ministries.

Neither of these good men really understood where John started "the trib" or the 70th week. They both thought the trib started with the first seal. They took that first seal out of its chapter 4 & 5 context of 32 AD. The truth is, Jesus took the book and began opening the seals as soon as He ascended back into the throne room.

The real start of the 70th week is at the 7th seal and WITH the first trumpet judgment - and the entire week comes with His wrath. Note carefully that the DAY of His wrath begins at the 6th seal. So the 70th week is INSIDE the Day of His wrath.

Therefore, if there is a movie, it will be teaching error.

 

[iamlamad]

All I have to say is this.

The explanation in post #3 only shows how deep man can go in creating his own eschatology system.

God's written Word does not show a 'rapture' prior to the "day of the Lord".

The day of God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked happens on the last day of this present world, as written in Revelation 16:15-17. It is linked with the event of 2 Peter 3:10 with God's consuming fire burning the rudiments of this world off God's green earth, and Peter showed there that is on the "day of the Lord".

In Rev.16:15, Jesus is still warning His Church on earth during the 6th Vial timing, warning that He comes "as a thief", linking the day of His coming to gather His Church with what Paul taught in 1 Thess.5 saying the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night".

Thusly:
1. Jesus comes "as a thief"
2. the "day of the Lord" happens on the last day.
3. the "day of the Lord" comes "as a thief in the night"
-----------------------------------------------------------
Result: Jesus comes on the "day of the Lord", the LAST DAY when a sudden destruction happens upon the wicked, that is the day when Jesus gathers His Church.

Jesus WILL come as a thief, meaning, no one will know when. But He is coming TWO More times. WHICH coming does this fit? Does it fit the 1 Thes. 4 coming - or does it fit the Rev. 19 coming? Does this scripture tell us?

OF COURSE it does: God would not leave us in the dark on such an important thing.

God's written Word does not show a 'rapture' prior to the "day of the Lord". this is MYTH:

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

There it is in black and white: the rapture followed by the Day of the Lord. BOTH will come as a thief because HE comes as a thief, at a time know one will know.

1. Jesus comes "as a thief" Truth, for both of His next comings.
2. the "day of the Lord" happens on the last day. True - but not the way you mean it: It will happen on the last day of the church age, but it happens of the FIRST day of the next age: the start of the Day of the Lord.

In other words, the RAPTURE will end one age and bring in another: one moment it is church age, and WHAM - the rapture takes place - and the next instant it will be Day of the Lord time: the time of God's wrath on earth.

3. the "day of the Lord" comes "as a thief in the night" Yes, because JESUS comes as a thief and His coming will trigger the rapture, which will trigger the Day of the Lord.

Readers take note: all this happen BEFORE the start of the 70th week of Daniel. His wrath begins (the DAY of His wrath) at the 6th seal. The 70th week starts at the 7th seal.

Jesus warning in Rev. 15 is the warning for His coming for Armageddon, NOT His coming for His bride which will be 7 years previous.

 

[Davy]

Jesus WILL come as a thief, meaning, no one will know when. But He is coming TWO More times. WHICH coming does this fit? Does it fit the 1 Thes. 4 coming - or does it fit the Rev. 19 coming? Does this scripture tell us?

You're just only regurgitating what the pre-trib rapture school has taught you. They wrongly apply the idea of Jesus coming "as a thief", because per God's Word that does... have a specific time for it to occur, i.e., the LAST DAY of this present world on the final 7th Vial (Rev.16:15-17). No man knows what day or hour that will be, but we are given what time that will be when it does happen. So all the imminent pre-trib rapture teachings are all for nought, and do not keep with what is written in God's Word.

God's written Word does not show a 'rapture' prior to the "day of the Lord". this is MYTH:
....
There it is in black and white: the rapture followed by the Day of the Lord. BOTH will come as a thief because HE comes as a thief, at a time know one will know.

You quote 1 Thess.5 but you don't even HEED what it shows. Paul got that "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" from what Jesus taught, and from the OT prophets. God through His OT prophets showed that day is about a day of destruction upon the wicked, and that it will happen 'at an instant suddenly'. The time when the deceived will be saying that "Peace and safety" is during the tribulation just PRIOR to Christ's return to gather His Church. Paul was giving us a SIGN to watch with that Peace and safety to know Christ's coming would be soon thereafter.

To the Church at Sardis Jesus said...

Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
KJV

Like Paul taught in 1 Thess.5, that day is not supposed to surprise Christ's Church as a thief in the night. And it won't, for those in Christ that WATCH those SIGNS He and His Apostles gave His Church.

There are only TWO comings of Christ Jesus. The first coming was to die on the cross for the remission of sins for those who believe. The second coming is with a two-edged sword to gather His Church and fight His enemies, and reign over them with a rod of iron.

Heb 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
KJV

It was John Darby and Edward Irving in 1830s Great Britain that started the insertion of a 'secret' rapture into the Scripture between Christ's 1st coming and His 2nd coming, thus creating 3 comings of Christ. All those who do that will have their part taken out of the book of life, as written...

Rev 22:19
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
KJV

 

[Davy]

1. Jesus comes "as a thief" Truth, for both of His next comings.
2. the "day of the Lord" happens on the last day. True - but not the way you mean it: It will happen on the last day of the church age, but it happens of the FIRST day of the next age: the start of the Day of the Lord.

The "day of the Lord" is LITERALLY... the last day of this present world. We easily know this because of 2 Peter 3:10 about God's consuming fire burning the rudiments of this world off the earth. That day is when Jesus will subdue all His enemies, and begin His future "thousand years" reign over all nations, with His elect. To even infer the tribulation is still happening on that "day of the Lord" is to tell an obvious LIE, and is to DENY Christ's Authority and Power to reign.

In other words, the RAPTURE will end one age and bring in another: one moment it is church age, and WHAM - the rapture takes place - and the next instant it will be Day of the Lord time: the time of God's wrath on earth.

End of the world, end of the age, no difference, because the sudden destruction upon the wicked who will be saying, "Peace and safety", by God's consuming fire, MARKS what kind of day it will be (2 Peter 3:10; Hebrews 12:25-29).

There is no such thing as John Darby's "Church ages" idea; that's just a theory he formed by his specific theory of Dispensationalism. Christ's 7 Messages to the seven Churches in Revelation are for ALL Churches still today. The Church ages theory detracts from those Messages, because it wrongly assumes each Message has a time in history. Not so, each Message is FOR TODAY, to use in comparison of what KIND of Church one is in.

3. the "day of the Lord" comes "as a thief in the night" Yes, because JESUS comes as a thief and His coming will trigger the rapture, which will trigger the Day of the Lord.

You agree above the "day of the Lord" comes with Christ's 2nd coming to gather His Church, but then you LIE below and say that happens PRIOR to the start of Daniel's symbolic "one week" of Dan.9:27...

Readers take note: all this happen BEFORE the start of the 70th week of Daniel. His wrath begins (the DAY of His wrath) at the 6th seal. The 70th week starts at the 7th seal.

Jesus warning in Rev. 15 is the warning for His coming for Armageddon, NOT His coming for His bride which will be 7 years previous.

Of course that is a LIE from man's pre-trib rapture doctrine. Apostle Paul showed in 1 Thess.5 that when the deceived say, "Peace and safety", that is when the "sudden destruction" will come upon them. That is... the "day of the Lord"!!! It comes "as a thief" UPON THEM!

So how can that "day of the Lord" happen before... the tribulation, when that day is about the sudden destruction upon the wicked??? even as shown by Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.5???

Nah, all you're doing is just regurgitating men's doctrines, and you obviously do not think for yourself. Otherwise you'd understand and heed what Paul taught in 1 Thess.5 on the "day of the Lord" timing happening when the "sudden destruction" happens upon the wicked, like he said!

But any LIE will do in your case, just so you can keep your false tradition.

 

[Bobber]

The real start of the 70th week is at the 7th seal and WITH the first trumpet judgment - and the entire week comes with His wrath. Note carefully that the DAY of His wrath begins at the 6th seal. So the 70th week is INSIDE the Day of His wrath.

Therefore, if there is a movie, it will be teaching error.

This assumes what are called the seals are judgments of God. But how could they be? The fifth seal is about persecution of God's saints.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:9


Say what one will but it can't be a judgment of God. God doesn't go around slaying his people and have it then defined as the wrath of God. And then....at the end of chapter 6 we read the world leaders lament, "For the great day of this wrath has come and who shall be able to stand"

Has come? Has come? Has to me it didn't come before that. So my take....basically the first 3 1/2 years is not the wrath of God....but they are turbulent times that have come upon the Earth....that's without question....BUT.....it's not the actual wrath of God.

I consider the trumpet judgments and the bowl judgments are probably speaking of the same things (the wrath) but the seals are not. So I think you can have what's called "the week" not all the wrath of God but the turbulent times or tribulation.....but that can't be defined as wrath. Jesus said in the world you will have tribulation but he has not however appointed us to wrath.

 

[iamlamad]

You're just only regurgitating what the pre-trib rapture school has taught you. They wrongly apply the idea of Jesus coming "as a thief", because per God's Word that does... have a specific time for it to occur, i.e., the LAST DAY of this present world on the final 7th Vial (Rev.16:15-17). No man knows what day or hour that will be, but we are given what time that will be when it does happen. So all the imminent pre-trib rapture teachings are all for nought, and do not keep with what is written in God's Word.




You quote 1 Thess.5 but you don't even HEED what it shows. Paul got that "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" from what Jesus taught, and from the OT prophets. God through His OT prophets showed that day is about a day of destruction upon the wicked, and that it will happen 'at an instant suddenly'. The time when the deceived will be saying that "Peace and safety" is during the tribulation just PRIOR to Christ's return to gather His Church. Paul was giving us a SIGN to watch with that Peace and safety to know Christ's coming would be soon thereafter.

To the Church at Sardis Jesus said...

Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
KJV

Like Paul taught in 1 Thess.5, that day is not supposed to surprise Christ's Church as a thief in the night. And it won't, for those in Christ that WATCH those SIGNS He and His Apostles gave His Church.

There are only TWO comings of Christ Jesus. The first coming was to die on the cross for the remission of sins for those who believe. The second coming is with a two-edged sword to gather His Church and fight His enemies, and reign over them with a rod of iron.

Heb 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
KJV

It was John Darby and Edward Irving in 1830s Great Britain that started the insertion of a 'secret' rapture into the Scripture between Christ's 1st coming and His 2nd coming, thus creating 3 comings of Christ. All those who do that will have their part taken out of the book of life, as written...

Rev 22:19
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
KJV

You're just only regurgitating what the pre-trib rapture school has taught you. Wrong. What I know I learned from personal study and God's assistance.

[Day of the Lord] the LAST DAY of this present world on the final 7th Vial Why do you IGNORE what is written and form a theory against what is written? You cannot move the 5th seal to the last day! Everyone knows such a theory is error big time. The 5th seal is sealing the book which contains the 70th week. It is impossible therefore to move the 5th seal ANYWHERE but where john put it. And you certainly know the Day of His wrath (aka the Day of the Lord) STARTs at the 5th seal.

Just so you can always know, the 5th seal will be OVER 7 years before the 7th vial. You totally ignore John's timing and chronology.

No man knows what day or hour that will be, but we are given what time that will be when it does happen. So all the imminent pre-trib rapture teachings are all for nought, and do not keep with what is written in God's Word. All you are saying is, you don't understand the very scriptures you use. Paul tells us the DAY comes as a thief - but just showed Jesus' prewrath coming. It is obvious, Jesus coming is for the rapture which will trigger the DAY. So BOTH events (HIS coming plus the DAY coming) will come as a thief. Pretrib stands SOLID on Paul's scriptures. After all, Paul is the only writer who received that revelation.

Paul got that "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" from what Jesus taught, You think Paul listened to Jesus? Paul learned of the rapture from direct revelation from Jesus.

"Peace and safety" is during the tribulation just PRIOR to Christ's return to gather His Church. This is both funny and silly. At that time most of the world's population will have died. All fresh water and seas turned to blood. Darkness is around the planet. People are scared out of their wits wondering what terrible thing will come next. NO ONE will be thinking peace and safety just before Jesus comes to Armageddon. "Peace and safety" fits TODAY much better.

Indeed Old Testament prophets said the Day of the Lord would be God destroying the earth and the sinners on the earth - EXACTLY what we seen starting with the trumpet judgments (which begin right after the Day of His wrath begins.) God's chronology is perfect - no need to rearrange.

The "suddenly" is Paul's "sudden destruction" which will follow hard after those alive and in Christ are caught up. The sun will turn dark and the moon into blood to mark the coming Day of the Lord.

There are only TWO comings of Christ Jesus. Correction: There are only TWO MORE comings of Christ Jesus.

The second coming is with a two-edged sword to gather His Church and fight His enemies You are mixing two comings together. He is coming to the AIR FOR His bride, and then wait out the 70th week in heaven (where I am you may be also) where HE "AM" during the week. No two edged sword in 1 Thes.
He comes WiTH His saints to the battle.

and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Here is the truth of this message: He is not going to appear pretrib for those NOT LOOKING for Him. Where is that going to leave people who believe as you do.

His third coming ALL will see Him.

 

[Davy]

This assumes what are called the seals are judgments of God. But how could they be? The fifth seal is about persecution of God's saints.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:9


Say what one will but it can't be a judgment of God. God doesn't go around slaying his people and have it then defined as the wrath of God. And then....at the end of chapter 6 we read the world leaders lament, "For the great day of this wrath has come and who shall be able to stand"

Has come? Has come? Has to me it didn't come before that. So my take....basically the first 3 1/2 years is not the wrath of God....but they are turbulent times that have come upon the Earth....that's without question....BUT.....it's not the actual wrath of God.

I consider the trumpet judgments and the bowl judgments are probably speaking of the same things (the wrath) but the seals are not. So I think you can have what's called "the week" not all the wrath of God but the turbulent times or tribulation.....but that can't be defined as wrath. Jesus said in the world you will have tribulation but he has not however appointed us to wrath.

Pre-trib wrongly assigns the 'wrath' of 1 Thess.5:9 as being all the wraths mentioned in Rev.16 with the Vials. But per the "sudden destruction" Paul describes there, that wrath is actually about the 7th Vial, i.e., God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked on the last day of this world.

They forget heeding the ministry of God's two witnesses and the plagues they cause upon the wicked for the 1260 days, per Rev.11.

 

[Davy]

You're just only regurgitating what the pre-trib rapture school has taught you. Wrong. What I know I learned from personal study and God's assistance.

That's an even worse fib. With admitting that you're following the pre-trib rapture theory from men (which you are), you'd might at least have had some consolation for being deceived.

[Day of the Lord] the LAST DAY of this present world on the final 7th Vial Why do you IGNORE what is written and form a theory against what is written? You cannot move the 5th seal to the last day! Everyone knows such a theory is error big time. The 5th seal is sealing the book which contains the 70th week. It is impossible therefore to move the 5th seal ANYWHERE but where john put it. And you certainly know the Day of His wrath (aka the Day of the Lord) STARTs at the 5th seal.

You're the one ignoring Scripture, like the very 1 Thess.5 verses by Apostle Paul that you began your earlier post with! Tell me when Paul said there, that "sudden destruction" upon the wicked will happen???

I didn't move the 5th Seal to the last day, that's a stupid accusation. YOU are the one trying to move it!

The 5th Seal of Rev.6 is about the time when 'some' in Christ's faithful Church are delivered up to give a Witness DURING the tribulation. No rapture happens yet at that time, otherwise they wouldn't be on earth to given that Witness. Jesus told us this Sign in His Olivet discourse also (Mark 13).

Just so you can always know, the 5th seal will be OVER 7 years before the 7th vial. You totally ignore John's timing and chronology.

The 5th Seal is tribulation timing. It's YOU that ignore what John was given to write down.

Rev 12:17
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV

Rev 13:7
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
KJV

No man knows what day or hour that will be, but we are given what time that will be when it does happen. So all the imminent pre-trib rapture teachings are all for nought, and do not keep with what is written in God's Word. All you are saying is, you don't understand the very scriptures you use. Paul tells us the DAY comes as a thief - but just showed Jesus' prewrath coming. It is obvious, Jesus coming is for the rapture which will trigger the DAY. So BOTH events (HIS coming plus the DAY coming) will come as a thief. Pretrib stands SOLID on Paul's scriptures. After all, Paul is the only writer who received that revelation.

It's YOU that doesn't understand God's Word as written, because you DENY it and instead follow man's teaching of a pre-trib rapture theory.

When did you say that "sudden destruction" of 1 Thess.5 happens upon the wicked?

That "sudden destruction" upon the wicked happens on the "day of the Lord" which will come "as a thief in the night"! THAT is what Apostle Paul taught there. HOW THEN CAN THE TRIBULATION BE JUST STARTING ON THAT DAY??? You got it all backwards.

Paul got that "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" from what Jesus taught, You think Paul listened to Jesus? Paul learned of the rapture from direct revelation from Jesus.

"Peace and safety" is during the tribulation just PRIOR to Christ's return to gather His Church. This is both funny and silly. At that time most of the world's population will have died. All fresh water and seas turned to blood. Darkness is around the planet. People are scared out of their wits wondering what terrible thing will come next. NO ONE will be thinking peace and safety just before Jesus comes to Armageddon. "Peace and safety" fits TODAY much better.

Indeed Old Testament prophets said the Day of the Lord would be God destroying the earth and the sinners on the earth - EXACTLY what we seen starting with the trumpet judgments (which begin right after the Day of His wrath begins.) God's chronology is perfect - no need to rearrange.

The "suddenly" is Paul's "sudden destruction" which will follow hard after those alive and in Christ are caught up. The sun will turn dark and the moon into blood to mark the coming Day of the Lord.

There are only TWO comings of Christ Jesus. Correction: There are only TWO MORE comings of Christ Jesus.

The second coming is with a two-edged sword to gather His Church and fight His enemies You are mixing two comings together. He is coming to the AIR FOR His bride, and then wait out the 70th week in heaven (where I am you may be also) where HE "AM" during the week. No two edged sword in 1 Thes.
He comes WiTH His saints to the battle.

and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Here is the truth of this message: He is not going to appear pretrib for those NOT LOOKING for Him. Where is that going to leave people who believe as you do.

His third coming ALL will see Him.

Ah... that idea of His not appearing for those not looking for Him is definitely a pre-trib rapture school idea! I thought you said you only got your understanding directly from God in His Word??? No, you are just furthering their lies you got from them.

Christ's coming to gather His Church is on the "day of the Lord", AS WRITTEN...

Zech 14:1-5
14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
KJV

The actual day of BATTLE is that "day of the Lord".

 

[Bobber]

You're just only regurgitating what the pre-trib rapture school has taught you. Wrong. What I know I learned from personal study and God's assistance.

Actually my friend I've always believed with God's assistance I saw about Pre-Wrath around the year of 1980 actually before a couple of popular books came out about it. Ha...not that I claim I saw it first for I found a book months later, an old missionary book which was written many years prior which said the same thing. The WORD of God is the only thing that matters though. It's a dime a dozen of people claiming God showed them. All who claim this obviously are not right.

Just so you can always know, the 5th seal will be OVER 7 years before the 7th vial. You totally ignore John's timing and chronology.

So you're claiming all the event's after Rev 6 are called the tribulation period? Tribulation means persecution....the greek word wrath is a different one used in Rev 6: 17. Tribulation is everything before Rev 6:17. Wrath is everything after and it seems that lasts about three years.

"Peace and safety" is during the tribulation just PRIOR to Christ's return to gather His Church. This is both funny and silly. At that time most of the world's population will have died.

Not if you're considering it's all taking place before Rev 6:16. There will be something established which seems like peace and safety even though it can be difficult for the body of Christ.

I won't claim it as an absolute that God did reveal to me what I believe. I think he did so. Could I be wrong? I suppose. But I don't see the total Pre-Trib rapture making sense at all. It makes too many assumptions in my opinion. As in Matt 24 wasn't written for the body of Christ but for tribulation Jews. Can't buy it. Doesn't make sense. And it is in that chapter that we see about the one being taken and the other left. One can't say it's written for Jews but then again....um....maybe not all of it is.

 

[iamlamad]

This assumes what are called the seals are judgments of God. But how could they be? The fifth seal is about persecution of God's saints.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:9


Say what one will but it can't be a judgment of God. God doesn't go around slaying his people and have it then defined as the wrath of God. And then....at the end of chapter 6 we read the world leaders lament, "For the great day of this wrath has come and who shall be able to stand"

Has come? Has come? Has to me it didn't come before that. So my take....basically the first 3 1/2 years is not the wrath of God....but they are turbulent times that have come upon the Earth....that's without question....BUT.....it's not the actual wrath of God.

I consider the trumpet judgments and the bowl judgments are probably speaking of the same things (the wrath) but the seals are not. So I think you can have what's called "the week" not all the wrath of God but the turbulent times or tribulation.....but that can't be defined as wrath. Jesus said in the world you will have tribulation but he has not however appointed us to wrath.

This assumes what are called the seals are judgments of God No, sorry. It does not. Judgment begins at the 6th seal which is the start of the Day of the Lord.

Say what one will but it can't be a judgment of God. It is not, of course. But your first sentence was wrong.

Has [Says] to me it didn't come before that. Of course not, His wrath begins at the Day of His wrath and WITH the first trumpet judgment.

basically the first 3 1/2 years is not the wrath of God Wrong thinking: John has not even got to ANY PART of the 70th week yet. Church age is up to the 6th seal, then it is Day of the Lord - NONE of which is the 70th week that will begin at the 7th seal.

it's not the actual wrath of God. Can you believe that His wrath will not start before the DAY of His wrath starts? It should be easy.

I consider the trumpet judgments and the bowl judgments are probably speaking of the same things (the wrath) but the seals are not. Yes, of course: both are in the DAY of His wrath. All trumpet judgments and bowls come with His wrath. That is the 7th week of Daniel: 7th seal to 7th vial.

 

[Davy]

Actually my friend I've always believed with God's assistance I saw about Pre-Wrath around the year of 1980 actually before a couple of popular books came out about it. Ha...not that I claim I saw it first for I found a book months later, an old missionary book which was written many years prior which said the same thing. The WORD of God is the only thing that matters though. It's a dime a dozen of people claiming God showed them. All who claim this obviously are not right.

So you're claiming all the event's after Rev 6 are called the tribulation period? Tribulation means persecution....the greek word wrath is a different one used in Rev 6: 17. Tribulation is everything before Rev 6:17. Wrath is everything after and it seems that lasts about three years.
....

The Pre-trib Rapture school (and others) don't realize that the Signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse parallel the Seals of Rev.6.

The last Sign Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse was that of His 2nd coming and gathering of His Church. The last event in Rev.6 is that of His 2nd coming with God's cup of wrath getting ready to be poured out upon the wicked, which is what Paul's "sudden destruction" on the "day of the Lord" of 1 Thess.5 is about.

Cup of wrath poured out, sudden destruction upon the wicked, it's a no brainer. Both are about the event of the "day of the Lord" that will come "as a thief in the night".

And Jesus said to His Church that He comes "as a thief" (Rev.16:15; Matt.24).

And Apostle Paul also showed in 2 Thess.2 that the Antichrist must be revealed with a great falling away PRIOR to Christ's coming and gathering of His Church. No brainer again.