Prevenient Grace

Tree of Life · Jul 31, 2017

HatGuy said:
Calvinist:
Election
Predestination
Calling
Regeneration
Faith
Repentance
Justification
Sanctification
Perseverance
Glorification

This is a strange ordo salutis. "Election" and "Predestination" for these purposes are identical. No need to place them one after another. Also "Regeneration", "Faith", and "Repentance" while not identical are all simultaneous. So it would not be right to think of them as temporally sequential. Likewise, "Sanctification" and "Perseverance" are simultaneous.

Hammster · Jul 31, 2017

Tree of Life said:
This is a strange ordo salutis. "Election" and "Predestination" for these purposes are identical. No need to place them one after another. Also "Regeneration", "Faith", and "Repentance" while not identical are all simultaneous. So it would not be right to think of them as temporally sequential. Likewise, "Sanctification" and "Perseverance" are simultaneous.

I think it's a logical order, not a temporal order.

Tree of Life · Jul 31, 2017

Hammster said:
I think it's a logical order, not a temporal order.

Much of it doesn't work as a logical order either. Logically speaking, faith and repentance cannot be placed in any order.

Hammster · Jul 31, 2017

Tree of Life said:
Much of it doesn't work as a logical order either. Logically speaking, faith and repentance cannot be placed in any order.

I would disagree, but then we will probably be outside the scope of the thread.

Rescued One · Jul 31, 2017

In the many denominations I've visited, doctrine isn't taught in a way that people recognize it. For instance, in the Wesleyan church, the sermons tend to be about lifestyle. One time a pastor said, "Don't blame yourself if your loved one doesn't come to the Lord; even God can't change that person." Oh, I thought, "God is omnipotent."

So here's something I found online:

Question: "What is prevenient grace?"

Answer: Prevenient grace is a phrase used to describe the grace given by God that precedes the act of a sinner exercising saving faith in Jesus Christ. The term prevenient comes from a Latin word that meant ”to come before, to anticipate.” By definition, every theological system that affirms the necessity of God’s grace prior to a sinner’s conversion teaches a type of prevenient grace. The Reformed doctrine of irresistible grace is a type of prevenient grace, as is common grace.

However, when the phrase “prevenient grace” is used in theological discussions, it is used in a specific way. In the context of the on-going Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate, prevenient grace is referred to in order to object to the Calvinist doctrine of irresistible grace. This is the reason why, in both modern and historic times, it has also been called “resistible grace” or “pre-regenerating grace.” Since denying the necessity of God’s grace prior to a sinner’s conversion is clearly against biblical teaching, the non-Calvinist theological systems have to affirm a doctrine of grace that precedes a person’s exercising of saving faith. Since non-Calvinists do not believe the saving grace of God always results in the sinner coming to Christ, Christians down through the ages have referred to a type of grace they call prevenient. Simply put, prevenient grace is the grace of God given to individuals that releases them from their bondage to sin and enables them to come to Christ in faith but does not guarantee that the sinner will actually do so. Thus, the efficacy of the enabling grace of God is determined not by God but by man...
What is prevenient grace?

Tree of Life · Jul 31, 2017

Hammster said:
I would disagree, but then we will probably be outside the scope of the thread.

Scope shmope. Why do you think that one can logically precede the other?

Hammster · Jul 31, 2017

Tree of Life said:
Scope shmope. Why do you think that one can logically precede the other?

Without faith, why would one repent?

Rescued One · Jul 31, 2017

Tree of Life said:
Much of it doesn't work as a logical order either. Logically speaking, faith and repentance cannot be placed in any order.

But without faith, how can a person repent?

Tree of Life · Jul 31, 2017

Hammster said:
Without faith, why would one repent?

What is faith if not turning from idols to serve the living God?

Tree of Life · Jul 31, 2017

Faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin. One cannot exist without the other occurring simultaneously. If there is no repentance then there is no true faith. If there is no faith then there is no true repentance.

Hammster · Jul 31, 2017

Tree of Life said:
What is faith if not turning from idols to serve the living God?

Faith is belief. Repenting is the result.

fhansen · Jul 31, 2017

Hammster said:
So you don't hold to prevenient grace. Why are you posting here?

Strange question, going by the OP. But in any case I do believe in prevenient grace- I just don't believe it's irresistible.

Tree of Life · Jul 31, 2017

Hammster said:
Faith is belief. Repenting is the result.

Faith without works is dead. Faith is never mere belief. And repentance is a work of faith, not a result of faith.

Hammster · Jul 31, 2017

fhansen said:
Strange question, going by the OP. But in any case I do believe in prevenient grace- I just don't believe it's irresistible.

So what does it accomplish?

Hammster · Jul 31, 2017

Tree of Life said:
Faith without works is dead. Faith is never mere belief. And repentance is a work of faith, not a result of faith.

I think you are splitting hairs here. Do you have to have faith in order to be repentant? If not, why are you repentant?

Tree of Life · Jul 31, 2017

Hammster said:
I think you are splitting hairs here. Do you have to have faith in order to be repentant? If not, why are you repentant?

Do you have to have repentance in order to be faithful? This is one hair that I'm trying to keep together. Looks to me like you're the one who is trying to separate what God has joined together.

fhansen · Jul 31, 2017

Hammster said:
So what does it accomplish?

It amounts to God's offer of salvation to man. This is the teaching:
1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42

PG does everything but force us to comply. It prepares us and enlightens us and enables a cooperation that we would not consider otherwise but still not does not make us obey in faith. God seeks to draw a will towards Him that is weakened, wounded, corrupted but not suffering from total depravity. We can't come near to Him without grace, but He still wants us to participate in accepting that grace.

Friend-of-Jesus · Jul 31, 2017

A_Thinker said:
Whatever it was ... it DROVE them to the LIGHT.

The same things drive other people to darkness.

Hammster · Jul 31, 2017

Tree of Life said:
Do you have to have repentance in order to be faithful? This is one hair that I'm trying to keep together. Looks to me like you're the one who is trying to separate what God has joined together.

Okay.

Hammster · Jul 31, 2017

fhansen said:
It amounts to God's offer of salvation to man. This is the teaching:
1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42

PG does everything but force us to comply. It prepares us and enlightens us and enables a cooperation that we would not consider otherwise but still not does not make us obey in faith. God seeks to draw a will towards Him that is weakened, wounded, corrupted but not suffering from total depravity. We can't come near to Him without grace, but He still wants us to participate in accepting that grace.

So is this person dead in sin, or alive in Christ, if they aren't yet saved?

Prevenient Grace

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