Prevenient Grace: What is it?

guuila · Jul 2, 2013

SolaOne said:
I found this:

Prevenient grace is grace that God gives to begin the process of drawing a person to Himself. Its purpose is to prepare the heart of the non believer to respond to the good news of salvation in Jesus Christ. Because of the sinful nature, no person seeks after God on his own. The Holy Spirit convicts a person of sin, shows him his need for the Savior, and urges the person to repent. Prevenient grace is universal, given to all. It is resistible - a person can spurn it to his own detriment. It works in combination with the hearing of the Word. It shows the non-believer that he has a further need for salvation. It results in saving grace when a person positively responds and perseveres in faith.

This seems contradictory. It says prevenient grace is resistible, yet it shows a person their need for a savior. Why would any hostile rebel sinner choose to understand their need for a savior? They think the whole concept is stupid. It doesn't make sense that a person wouldn't resist prevenient grace.

Describing prevenient grace, Thomas Oden writes:
Prevening grace antecedes human responsiveness so as to prepare the soul for the effective hearing of the redeeming Word. This preceding grace draws persons closer to God, lessens their blindness to divine remedies, strengthens their will to accept revealed truth, and enables repentance. Only when sinners are assisted by prevenient grace can they begin to yield their hearts to cooperation with subsequent forms of grace.

My question is again, why would someone in the flesh not resist this? How is not resisting even possible? People in the flesh hate God.

Arminians believe that God draws everyone to Himself

Not necessarily. If this grace can be resisted, that means God draws everyone who will allow him to draw them. So in order for a person to be saved according to this, they must first 1) Not resist prevenient grace, and then 2) Take that grace and capitalize on it by making a libertarian free will decision to believe, and 3) Keep on keepin' on by doing #2 over and over until they die.

Arminians believe that drawing grace can be rejected, while Calvinists believe that drawing grace is always effectual.

Yes, and I don't understand why any Christian would prefer that they have the power to keep it from being effectual. Essentially they want God to serve THEM and their will instead of the other way around. Just further proof that man is depraved if you ask me.

shturt678 · Jul 2, 2013

griff said:
This seems contradictory. It says prevenient grace is resistible, yet it shows a person their need for a savior. Why would any hostile rebel sinner choose to understand their need for a savior? They think the whole concept is stupid. It doesn't make sense that a person wouldn't resist prevenient grace.

My question is again, why would someone in the flesh not resist this? How is not resisting even possible? People in the flesh hate God.

Not necessarily. If this grace can be resisted, that means God draws everyone who will allow him to draw them. So in order for a person to be saved according to this, they must first 1) Not resist prevenient grace, and then 2) Take that grace and capitalize on it by making a libertarian free will decision to believe, and 3) Keep on keepin' on by doing #2 over and over until they die.

Yes, and I don't understand why any Christian would prefer that they have the power to keep it from being effectual. Essentially they want God to serve THEM and their will instead of the other way around. Just further proof that man is depraved if you ask me.

"Depraved" & "Enslaved" (wills) seems like the antichrist has the power in today's time for sure regarding the things that make for salvation, ie, we can cut and paste as we choose? We'll have eternity to think about it for sure and sadly I'll probably be with you just because of the time I was born into.

SolaOne · Jul 2, 2013

What grace is being show in Isaiah to the wicked?

Isa 26:10
Though grace is shown to the wicked, they do not learn righteousness;
even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil and regard not the majesty of the LORD.

What grace is Jonah referring to that could be theirs?

Jonah 2:8
"Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs.

Hammster · Jul 2, 2013

SolaOne said:
What grace is being show in Isaiah to the wicked?

Isa 26:10
Though grace is shown to the wicked, they do not learn righteousness;
even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil and regard not the majesty of the LORD.

What grace is Jonah referring to that could be theirs?

Jonah 2:8
"Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs.

Common, in the first example. None in the second.

SolaOne · Jul 2, 2013

Hammster said:
Common, in the first example. None in the second.

Jonah 2:8
"Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs.

None? What grace could be theirs? Some type of grace is forfeited.

Hammster · Jul 2, 2013

SolaOne said:
Jonah 2:8
"Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs.

None? What grace could be theirs? Some type of grace is forfeited.

None.

Those who pay regard to vain idols forsake their hope of steadfast love. (Jonah 2:8 ESV)

"Those who regard vain idols Forsake their faithfulness, (Jonah 2:8 NASB)

Those who cling to worthless idols forsake faithful love, (Jonah 2:8 HCSB)

They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy. (Jonah 2:8 KJV)

SolaOne · Jul 2, 2013

Jonah 2:8
"Those who cling to worthless idols do not forfeit grace and there is no grace that could be theirs.

There I fixed it.

Hammster · Jul 2, 2013

SolaOne said:
Jonah 2:8
"Those who cling to worthless idols do not forfeit grace and there is no grace that could be theirs.

There I fixed it.

And what version is that?

nobdysfool · Jul 3, 2013

SolaOne said:
I found this:

Prevenient grace is grace that God gives to begin the process of drawing a person to Himself. Its purpose is to prepare the heart of the non believer to respond to the good news of salvation in Jesus Christ. Because of the sinful nature, no person seeks after God on his own. The Holy Spirit convicts a person of sin, shows him his need for the Savior, and urges the person to repent. Prevenient grace is universal, given to all. It is resistible - a person can spurn it to his own detriment. It works in combination with the hearing of the Word. It shows the non-believer that he has a further need for salvation. It results in saving grace when a person positively responds and perseveres in faith.

Describing prevenient grace, Thomas Oden writes:
Prevening grace antecedes human responsiveness so as to prepare the soul for the effective hearing of the redeeming Word. This preceding grace draws persons closer to God, lessens their blindness to divine remedies, strengthens their will to accept revealed truth, and enables repentance. Only when sinners are assisted by prevenient grace can they begin to yield their hearts to cooperation with subsequent forms of grace.

Prevenient grace has some commonality with the Calvinistic teaching of irresistible grace. Both attempt to explain how God draws the non-believer to Himself. Thus, Arminians and Calvinists often appeal to the same passages when explaining their concepts of drawing grace (John 6:44, for example). The two primary differences between prevenient grace and and irresistable grace are scope and resistability. Arminians believe that God draws everyone to Himself, while Calvinists believe that He draws a limited number. Arminians believe that drawing grace can be rejected, while Calvinists believe that drawing grace is always effectual.

All of this is predicated on the assumption that turning to Christ is ultimately sourced within the sinner himself, apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit whereby the will, the emotions, and the heart is changed and made alive. In other words, on the idea of libertarian free will. The assumption is that the sinner first turns and repents, and THEN he is regenerated.

Regeneration is not the indwelling. All through the OT God worked through men without indwelling them. He does so today.

Griff made some very good points in showing why the above quotes don't logically hold together.

SolaOne · Jul 3, 2013

nobdysfool said:
Regeneration is not the indwelling.

If the Holy Spirit does not indwell a person at regeneration, when does he?

Hammster · Jul 3, 2013

SolaOne said:
If the Holy Spirit does not indwell a person at regeneration, when does he?

Gives them a new heart.

SolaOne · Jul 3, 2013

Hammster said:
Gives them a new heart.

The question was, when does the Spirit indwell a person if not at regeneration?

Hammster · Jul 3, 2013

SolaOne said:
The question was, when does the Spirit indwell a person if not at regeneration?

Sorry. After justification.

SolaOne · Jul 3, 2013

Hammster said:
Sorry. After justification.

I thought you believed regeneration and belief were simultaneous?

Hammster · Jul 3, 2013

SolaOne said:
I thought you believed regeneration and belief were simultaneous?

I don't know that I've said that to you, but yes, they are. So?

SolaOne · Jul 3, 2013

griff said:
This seems contradictory. It says prevenient grace is resistible, yet it shows a person their need for a savior. Why would any hostile rebel sinner choose to understand their need for a savior? They think the whole concept is stupid. It doesn't make sense that a person wouldn't resist prevenient grace.

IT'S THE GRACE TO BE ABLE TO OVERCOME THAT NATURAL INCLINATION TO RESIST. THAT IS WHAT IT IS.

griff said:
My question is again, why would someone in the flesh not resist this? How is not resisting even possible? People in the flesh hate God.

THAT'S WHAT IT IS. IT'S THE GRACE TO BE ABLE TO OVERCOME THAT NATURAL INCLINATION TO RESIST.

nobdysfool · Jul 3, 2013

Yelling does not make it correct. Nor does it explain it any better.

PS we know who you are....

SolaOne · Jul 3, 2013

Hammster said:
I don't know that I've said that to you, but yes, they are. So?

You are born to life because of righteousness, not righteousness coming because you are alive.

Rom 8:10-11
yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

SolaOne · Jul 3, 2013

nobdysfool said:
Yelling does not make it correct. Nor does it explain it any better.

PS we know who you are....

So do I. I AM SolaOne Kanobie.

Why do people call writing in caps yelling?

Hammster · Jul 3, 2013

SolaOne said:
You are born to life because of righteousness, not righteousness coming because you are alive.

Rom 8:10-11
yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. (Romans 8:10 NASB)

Quote the whole verse, in context. You tried this a few months ago and it was explained then.

Prevenient Grace: What is it?

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