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Prevenient Grace, No Limited Atonement, 4 Pointer, Calvinist, or not?

AMR

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God's precepts (commands, things we should do) are to be distinguished from His decretive will (things that cannot not be). God has but one will, His volitional will. What we should do, per command of God, is not what we will do. We could say somewhat loosely, God wishes it were so. But when God genuinely wills something, volitionally, that will happen. I wish I could lose ten pounds (my preceptive will). But until I volitionally will to do so, using the means at my disposal, I will never lose ten pounds. Preceptive will. Decretive will. Two distinctions of the one unchanging will of God. Master the concept.
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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Do you believe that human being after the fall have free will, the capacity to "accept" or "reject", for example the call of God?
 
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hedrick

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An interesting article, but the most convincing statement in it seems to be "Daniel makes a comment to the effect that most of the contenders in this area tend to ascribe to Calvin the view which they hold themselves, that is to say, they appear to have yielded to the temptation to annex Calvin in support of their own position! Unfortunately this remark seems to apply also to Daniel’s treatment and to the present article."
 
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DeaconDean

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Do you believe that human being after the fall have free will, the capacity to "accept" or "reject", for example the call of God?

A better and more proper question would be: "Just how "free" is mans "free-will"".

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Yesterday, somebody said:

so, you denying that contextually the Greek has the "middle voice"? Since God did not prevent the Jews from accepting the Gospel in the first place, then He did not make the Gentiles accept it. If He did the latter, then He must have done the former!

Not once in any of my posts did I deny that. In fact, I wasn't even speaking on "voice", rather my focus was on "rendering".

Somebody took issue with my post because I supported the "ordain" rendering.

Even A.T. Robertson would disagree:

"As many as were ordained to eternal life (οσο ησαν τεταγμενο εις ζωην αιωνιον). Periphrastic past perfect passive indicative of τασσω, a military term to place in orderly arrangement. The word "ordain" is not the best translation here. "Appointed," as Hackett shows, is better."

Word Pictures in the New Testament, A.T. Roberson, Acts 13:48, p. 935

However, when we start pursuing this avenue, we come against the same arguments most use when advocating against the KJV. It's old, its antiquated, its outdated, no one uses that language anymore.

And all that is true. However, as long as "ordained" is a faithful rendering, it should still be used.

I cite:

"in the operations of war; whence the law ordains that the general shall give orders to the seer, and not the seer to the general. May we say this, Laches?"

Plato, Laches, Section 199a

Plato. Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 8 translated by W.R.M. Lamb. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1955.

I was also accused of not recognizing that the Greek has a "middle voice".

Again, that never came up aon any of my posts.

However, lets address that.

In Herbert Weir Smyth's book: "A Greek Grammar of Colleges, Part VI, Syntax, Active Voice, Middle Voice" he addresses the "middle voice";

He says:

"The middle voice shows that the action is performed with special reference to the subject: λοῦμαι I wash myself."

Ibid

He also cite about seven different cases:

"The Direct Reflexive Middle, The Indirect Reflexive Middle, Active and Reflexive, Middle and Reflexive, The Causative Middle, Reciprocal Middle, Middle Deponents."

In looking at all the definitions given for the middle voice, the only one that even come close to the context of the verse is:

"The Causative Middle: denotes that the subject has something done by another for himself: ““ἐγὼ γάρ σε ταῦτα ἐδιδαξάμην” for I had you taught this” X. C. 1.6.2, παρατίθεσθαι σῖτον to have food served up 8. 6. 12, ὅσοι ὅπλα ἀφῄρηνται, ταχὺ ἄλλα ποιήσονται all who have had their arms taken from them will soon get others made 6. 1. 12, ἑαυτῷ σκηνὴν κατεσκευάσατο he had a tent prepared for himself 2. 1. 30."

Ibid

Here is where we start to run into a problem.

I also have The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, by: Wesley J. Perschbacher.

In it he cites our word as:

"nom, pl., perf., pass., part."

Ibid, p. 405

Which also means that deciding on which "voice", is purely objective.

Here I cite:

"The primary argument revolves around the word τεταγμένοι (tetagmenoi) which is a form of the Greek verb tassw (tasso). The verb tasso means to draw up in order, to arrange, assign, fix, determine, appoint, or position. It is a word that is derived from the positioning of units in military order. The verb form in this verse, Tetagmenoi, is in the perfect tense meaning that it implies past action that has ongoing consequences (at least to the time of the writing). It is also part of a phrase that can be taken to be a past perfect (pluperfect) construction. This simply means that it establishes some point in the past (the time of the events in the narrative) and then describe some action prior to that time (tetagmenoi).

This brings us to the crucial part of the argument. If the verb is taken to be in the passive voice, meaning that the subject is receiving rather than doing the action of the verb, then the common translation is preferred. If, however, we understand the verb to be in the middle or reflexive voice, meaning that the subject acts upon themselves and both gives and receives the action of the verb, then Dr. Cottrell’s translation would be preferable. The problem is that τεταγμένοι, could be either middle or passive since the form of the verb would be the same in both cases. Since both the middle and passive renderings of the word are grammatically indistinguishable the decision on which is being used has to be made based upon its usage and context."

Source

In this instance, the Causative Middle fits the description for both the "middle" and "passive".

Looking at the grammatical construction, placing it purely in the middle or reflective does not agree with the scripture. Did the Gentile look back and say "If I believe I can be appointed/ordained?"

The only avenue in this case is to accept both the "Causative Middle" and "passive" as the right rendering.

From the context alone, the Gentiles absolutely played no part in the "arranging, appointing, ordaining".

The Middle voice clearly indicates that that was something that done for them, by something/somebody outside themselves on their behalf.

Furthermore, if you take the Causative middle, then you are also forced to admit that it changes "τεταγμένοι" into what is sometimes seen as a "Causative Verb". In other words, The Gentiles were passive and played not part in their "arrangement, assignment, appointment, position, or ordaining, but the causative verb causes them "to believe". Believing comes as a result of their "arrangement, assignment, appointment, position, or ordaining".

And we also have to be careful here in that while scripture leads us to this conclusion, we cannot say that each and every Gentile that heard the preaching believed.

What we can say from the verse is that of the Gentile audience that attended, those who were "appointed/ordained" to eternal life, believed.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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hedrick

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I would also draw your attention to The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 8:27, 1156; it also agrees with everything I have said.
Here's what TDNT says on Act 13:48:

"According to Ac. 13:48 the man who is a Christian7 is ordained to eternal life.8 The idea that God’s will to save is accomplished in Christians with their conversion is obviously not connected with the thought of predestination (→ IV, 192, 1 ff.) but rather with that of conferring status (→ 31, 20 ff.); cf. οὐκ ἀξίους, Ac. 13:46."

The reference to 13:46 does make some sense in their interpretation. It says that those who didn't believed judged themselves to be unworthy of eternal life. TDNT implies that 13:48 should be understood as parallel, that the people who are ordained to eternal life are ordained because they believed.

I'm not expressing a personal position, but thought that the reference to TDNT should be clarified.
 
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DeaconDean

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Thank you, and here again, when citing that, my focus was upon rendering "τεταγμένοι" as "ordained".

Which incidentally, you helped me to prove.

So, thank you.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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Yes exactly what I have said all along. The action of the gentiles in verse 48 must correspond to the Jews in verse 46 and both understood as a response by both groups to the call of God. There is no predestination involved in the Greek in the context which shows the middle voice and not the passive as some suppose
 
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DeaconDean

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Here again, who said anything about "predestination"?

Scriptures say in Mt. 21:43:

"The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

We see this happening by the actions of those "ordained" to eternal life in Acts 13:48.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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"ordained" by who?
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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Who do you think.

God Bless

Till all are one.

You think "God" then the word must mean "preordained" which brings us back to the word which does not have this meaning. Because God is the agent of the action it can only mean "pre" but you will be forcing the meaning of the Greek word especially in the context
 
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DeaconDean

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There is nothing to indicate "pre" in the Greek or English.

What I see from you sir is an effort to try your best to tie this into "predestination".

Or, you trying to say people were "pre-elect".

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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There is nothing to indicate "pre" in the Greek or English.

What I see from you sir is an effort to try your best to tie this into "predestination".

Or, you trying to say people were "pre-elect".

God Bless

Till all are one.

I am not trying to tie this to anything. What I am saying is that the meaning of the this passage does not support the calvinist teaching of predestination as some suppose. I understand the passage of human free will in rejection (the Jews) and acceptance (the gentiles) with God being the actual Author since salvation is from Him
 
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DeaconDean

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And I again say where did I say anything about "predestination"?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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And I again say where did I say anything about "predestination"?

God Bless

Till all are one.

If you were to assign the "ordained" to the Lord, then the meaning can only be "pre". If to the gentiles then the "ordination" is in time. Do you understand what I am saying here?
 
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DeaconDean

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If you were to assign the "ordained" to the Lord, then the meaning can only be "pre". If to the gentiles then the "ordination" is in time. Do you understand what I am saying here?

And again, there is nothing in the text that mandate such a meaning. (pre)

Isn't "ἦσαν" rendered "they were/wast"?

Kinda defeats your argument.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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And again, there is nothing in the text that mandate such a meaning. (pre)

Isn't "ἦσαν" rendered "they were/wast"?

Kinda defeats your argument.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Don't worry you cannot understand what I am saying here
 
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DeaconDean

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Don't worry you cannot understand what I am saying here

"ἦσαν" is indicative of the "past". :O

I know what your trying to say.

If "ordain" is the proper rendering, then it should, according to Calvinism, be "pre-ordained" just as some people are "predestinated" to be saved.

And that ain't the case.

I don't see: "προτεταγμένοι". (preordained)

Which, btw, your remark here:

I am not trying to tie this to anything. What I am saying is that the meaning of the this passage does not support the calvinist teaching of predestination as some suppose.

Also shows you don't understand "predestination".

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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Well tell me where I am wrong
 
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