Prevenient Grace, No Limited Atonement, 4 Pointer, Calvinist, or not?

PrettyboyAndy

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I started attended a new Baptist Church, which my wife and kids like. However, the pastor believes in Prevenient Grace, does not believe in Limited Atonement, is only a 4 Pointer, yet he claims to be a Calvinist.

How is that possible? To me he is closer to Arminian or a hybrid mix of the two. But I personally would not consider him to be a Calvinist....
 

PrettyboyAndy

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John Calvin never believed or taught "limited atonement"!

For Whom Did Jesus Christ Die?

If he taught it or not, I could care less.

I am a 5 pointer, The bible clearly teaches Christ died for those whom were chosen before the World was created.

Christ did not die to partially restore us so that we have the ability to come to him, or die for us so he could restore the sin from the fall in the garden, He died for payment of Sin for his sheep.

Either we are in the Kingdom of Darkness or the Kingdom of Light, there is no inbetween hybrid state you speak of.

On the Cross, His death was specific and sufficient, clearly He died for His Sheep,

I am the good shepard, the good shepard lays down his life for his sheep. John 10:1

Are you suggesting that Jesus will tell nonbelievers, who never turned to Christ, who died and at day of judgement: "I died for you?, but you wouldn't come to me? God has a sheep, his sheep hear His voice and follow Him. There is a people, who will be chosen and called and conformed. It is not a mystery to God.

If Christ died for us, than we shall be conformed to His Image - He who began a good work will complete it.

Show me this hybrid inbetween state you speak of in the Scriptures? There is no such thing.

A dead, unregenerate person, who is slave to sin, and in the kingdom of Darkness, needs to be regenerated, removed his heart of stone, impart a heart of flesh, by means of Holy Spirit Salvation, which is a miracle from God, then he is a believer, and than can he be conformed to the Image of Christ.
 
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John Calvin never believed or taught "limited atonement"!

Years ago I put a fair amount of time into researching Calvin's view on the atonement. Mind you I have never completely read even one of his many works, but I have read enough to reach a conclusion. It included the Reformed confessions of his time, especially those more local to Geneva, including the Genevan Confession and the French Confession. Those and his writings on predestination, the bondage and liberation of the will, should be considered more weighty than any brief commentary note. If anything it simply proves even the most consistent of theologians can have inconsistencies, and or weaknesses.

Here is an example from the French Confession, which is said to be the work of Calvin, Beza, and Viret...

Article 12: Our Election in Christ

We believe that from this corruption and general condemnation in which all men are plunged, God, according to his eternal and immutable counsel, calleth those whom he hath chosen by his goodness and mercy alone in our Lord Jesus Christ
(Exod 33:19†; Rom 8:29†; 9:15†), without consideration of their works (1 Sam 12:22†; Jer 1:5; John 15:16†; Rom 2:11, 23†; 3:28; 8:29; 9:23; 11:5–6†; Rom 12; Eph 1:4; Eph 2:4-5, 9; 2 Tim 1:9; 2:20†; Tit 3:5, 7†; 1 John 4:10†), to display in them the riches of his mercy (Exod 9:16†; Rom 9:17: Eph 1:7; Rom 3:22-24; 9:23†); leaving the rest in this same corruption and condemnation to show in them his justice (Exod 9:16; Ps 5:4-6†; Jer 2:10† [?]; Ezek 9:10†; 8:4†; Rom 1:18†; 9:22; Gal 6:7-8†; 2 Tim 2:20). For the ones are no better than the others (Jer 10:23†), until God discerns them according to his immutable purpose which he has determined in Jesus Christ before the creation of the world (Rom 9; Eph 1:4; 2 Tim 1:9). Neither can any man gain such a reward by his own virtue, as by nature we can not have a single good feeling, affection, or thought, except God has first put it into our hearts (Jer 10:23; Rom 9:16; Eph 1:4-5; 2 Tim 1:9; Phil 2:13; Tit 3:3).

This rings of particular sovereign grace in my ears..
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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Years ago I put a fair amount of time into researching Calvin's view on the atonement. Mind you I have never completely read even one of his many works, but I have read enough to reach a conclusion. It included the Reformed confessions of his time, especially those more local to Geneva, including the Genevan Confession and the French Confession. Those and his writings on predestination, the bondage and liberation of the will, should be considered more weighty than any brief commentary note. If anything it simply proves even the most consistent of theologians can have inconsistencies, and or weaknesses.

Here is an example from the French Confession, which is said to be the work of Calvin, Beza, and Viret...

Article 12: Our Election in Christ

We believe that from this corruption and general condemnation in which all men are plunged, God, according to his eternal and immutable counsel, calleth those whom he hath chosen by his goodness and mercy alone in our Lord Jesus Christ
(Exod 33:19†; Rom 8:29†; 9:15†), without consideration of their works (1 Sam 12:22†; Jer 1:5; John 15:16†; Rom 2:11, 23†; 3:28; 8:29; 9:23; 11:5–6†; Rom 12; Eph 1:4; Eph 2:4-5, 9; 2 Tim 1:9; 2:20†; Tit 3:5, 7†; 1 John 4:10†), to display in them the riches of his mercy (Exod 9:16†; Rom 9:17: Eph 1:7; Rom 3:22-24; 9:23†); leaving the rest in this same corruption and condemnation to show in them his justice (Exod 9:16; Ps 5:4-6†; Jer 2:10† [?]; Ezek 9:10†; 8:4†; Rom 1:18†; 9:22; Gal 6:7-8†; 2 Tim 2:20). For the ones are no better than the others (Jer 10:23†), until God discerns them according to his immutable purpose which he has determined in Jesus Christ before the creation of the world (Rom 9; Eph 1:4; 2 Tim 1:9). Neither can any man gain such a reward by his own virtue, as by nature we can not have a single good feeling, affection, or thought, except God has first put it into our hearts (Jer 10:23; Rom 9:16; Eph 1:4-5; 2 Tim 1:9; Phil 2:13; Tit 3:3).

This rings of particular sovereign grace in my ears..

John Calvin's name may have been put to this document, but no one can say for sure that he did it and accepted any of this? The fact that he very clearly says on John 3:16, Mark 14:24, and Colossians 1:14, that Jesus died for "the whole human race", is sufficient for any honest mind to conclude that he meant what he says here"!
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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If he taught it or not, I could care less.

I am a 5 pointer, The bible clearly teaches Christ died for those whom were chosen before the World was created.

Christ did not die to partially restore us so that we have the ability to come to him, or die for us so he could restore the sin from the fall in the garden, He died for payment of Sin for his sheep.

Either we are in the Kingdom of Darkness or the Kingdom of Light, there is no inbetween hybrid state you speak of.

On the Cross, His death was specific and sufficient, clearly He died for His Sheep,

I am the good shepard, the good shepard lays down his life for his sheep. John 10:1

Are you suggesting that Jesus will tell nonbelievers, who never turned to Christ, who died and at day of judgement: "I died for you?, but you wouldn't come to me? God has a sheep, his sheep hear His voice and follow Him. There is a people, who will be chosen and called and conformed. It is not a mystery to God.

If Christ died for us, than we shall be conformed to His Image - He who began a good work will complete it.

Show me this hybrid inbetween state you speak of in the Scriptures? There is no such thing.

A dead, unregenerate person, who is slave to sin, and in the kingdom of Darkness, needs to be regenerated, removed his heart of stone, impart a heart of flesh, by means of Holy Spirit Salvation, which is a miracle from God, then he is a believer, and than can he be conformed to the Image of Christ.

So, you think that you know more than Jesus Christ on His own death? He very clearly says in Luke 22, that His blood was shed also for Judas! This is very clear and cannot be twisted or reduced in its meaning. Argue all you will, but it proves that the Calvinists/Reformers are more interested in their pet "theologies", than what the Holy Bible actually says!
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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So, you think that you know more than Jesus Christ on His own death? He very clearly says in Luke 22, that His blood was shed also for Judas! This is very clear and cannot be twisted or reduced in its meaning. Argue all you will, but it proves that the Calvinists/Reformers are more interested in their pet "theologies", than what the Holy Bible actually says!


I think your blaspheming, how can you say Jesus died for Judas? If Jesus died and paid for the sins of Judas, he will be forgiven and be in heaven.

You ignore all the 100 verses trapping you and your foolish man made doctrine and try to prove nonsense to make yourself feel better.

God is in control of everything including salvation, accept it and stop trying to deny His sovereignty.

No one can come to me unless the father draws him!
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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I think your blaspheming, how can you say Jesus died for Judas? If Jesus died and paid for the sins of Judas, he will be forgiven and be in heaven.

You ignore all the 100 verses trapping you and your foolish man made doctrine and try to prove nonsense to make yourself feel better.

God is in control of everything including salvation, accept it and stop trying to deny His sovereignty.

No one can come to me unless the father draws him!

So, either Luke's account of the Lord's Supper is wrong, or Jesus made an error in what He did at the time?

Luke records Jesus institute the Lord's Supper with Judas very much in the room, and he actually took part in this Supper. Two leading "Reformer" commentators, Matthew Henry and John Gill, confirm that Judas actually took the Lord's Supper. Luke 22:19-22 reads;

"And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for YOU. this in remembrance of me.” And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for YOU is the new covenant in my blood.But behold, the hand of him who betrays me is with me on the table. For the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!"

The YOU in both cases includes Judas. How could Jesus have said these words to Judas, which speak of His approaching Death, if He did not include Judas in His Death on the cross? Did he mislead Judas? Jesus could have waited for Judas to have left the room, and then gave the Lord's Supper, but this her did not do! You can produce a million verses to support your "theory", but you cannot escape from this passage in Luke, which I believe the Lord made sure was there, to silence those who tried to "limit" the extent of His Death!
 
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DeaconDean

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I should hope so! Calvinism is very much unbiblical in most of what it stands for!

Maybe according to you.

I don't see it that way.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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Maybe according to you.

I don't see it that way.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Did you know that John Calvin was never a "Five Pointer"? He never believed in the "L"! The Lord showed him the truth here!
 
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DeaconDean

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Did you know that John Calvin was never a "Five Pointer"? He never believed in the "L"! The Lord showed him the truth here!

And the Five points of the Remonstrance was unknown to James Arminus" too.

But what has that to do with anything?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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And the Five points of the Remonstrance was unknown to James Arminus" too.

But what has that to do with anything?

God Bless

Till all are one.

I note that you are a "Calvinist", does this mean that you hold to "limited atonement" as the "Five Points of Calvinism"?
 
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DeaconDean

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I note that you are a "Calvinist", does this mean that you hold to "limited atonement" as the "Five Points of Calvinism"?

Yes I do.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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Yes I do.

God Bless

Till all are one.

But, if John Calvin did not believe that Jesus died only for the "elect", but for the "whole human race", is it not very misleading to claim that he did, by using the term "Five Points of Calvinism", which does NOT represent John Calvin's teachings?
 
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DeaconDean

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But, if John Calvin did not believe that Jesus died only for the "elect", but for the "whole human race", is it not very misleading to claim that he did, by using the term "Five Points of Calvinism", which does NOT represent John Calvin's teachings?

Since when, has everything in the scriptures been 100% revealed? Especially when you factor in that the Catholic Church had a monopoly on the scriptures.

Unless I'm mistaken, it took almost 500 years for a certain Bishop to recognize the truth and the teaching of "predestination" in the scriptures.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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The T.U.L.I.P. outline, came some time after John Calvin died.

You know that don't you?

Both the Five points of Calvinism (1619) and the Five points of the Remonstrance (1610) came after the death of both Calvin and Arminius.

So to say Calvin didn't believe in the "L" therefore it isn't true is wrong.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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The T.U.L.I.P. outline, came some time after John Calvin died.

You know that don't you?

Both the Five points of Calvinism (1619) and the Five points of the Remonstrance (1610) came after the death of both Calvin and Arminius.

So to say Calvin didn't believe in the "L" therefore it isn't true is wrong.

God Bless

Till all are one.

John Calvin:

" That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life." (Commentary on John)

Note the words that I have made bold. Language that no "Calvinist" would use for this verse! "all men without exception", which hardly "Calvinistic" language, which is "without distinction"! Then on Mark 14:24, " Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race". IF, as some suppose, that this "Limited Atonement" as part of the 5 Points (T.U.L.I.P.), is from John Calvin's teachings, then he could never have written these words on Mark 14:24. Note the careful language, "not part of the world", which is exactly what Limited Atonement teaches, that only a "part", that is, "the elect", is who Christ died for. No, says Calvin, "the WHOLE human race", is included in the death of the Lord Jesus Christ! AMEN!!!. One more example from Calvin. Colossians 1:14, " He says that this redemption was procured through the blood of Christ, for by the sacrifice of his death all the sins of the world have been expiated". Dr R T Kendall (among other Calvinists, like Richard Baxter, John Bunyan, John Newton, John Brown, and others), believed and taught that Jesus Christ died for the WHOLE WORLD WITHOUT EXCEPTION. Writing on the term "world" in John 3:16, which many Calvinists take to mean "elect", Dr Robert Dabney, himself a Calvinist, says, "But there are others of these passages, to which I think, the candid mind will admit, this sort of explanation is inapplicable. In Jno. iii.16, make 'the world' which Christ loved, to mean 'the elect world', and we reach the absurdity, that some of the elect may not believe, and perish" (Systematic Theology, page 525). Dr Dabney is addressing the passages where terms like "all", etc can have limited meanings, as we as what it actually says. Clearly to the "candid" mind, no limit can be placed on "the world", for which Jesus Christ loved, and died!
 
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DeaconDean

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In the first place, your use of Mk. 14:24 is questionable at best.

In the Greek, it simply means a number beyond numbering.

Secondly, can you say without exception that the word "world" literally means the entire world? There is no evidence of it.

Have you ever studied "scope and effect"?

Evidently not.

The price for sin was paid for in full by our Lord. The "scope' was to "tone for sin".

However, the effect is that not everybody takes advantage of it.

While the scope of Christ's death was "unlimited", the effect is that it is "limited" to the "elect".

This principle goes back to the Old Testament.

"The Old Testament only knew a limited design to sacrifice and atonement, didn’t it? There was no universal purpose in the Mosaic sacrifices was there? The Egyptians who worshipped their gods, and the Babylonians similarly sacrificing to their idols, and the Assyrians, and the Canaanites, and the Medes, and the Persians prostrating themselves before figures of stone, gold and silver – none of them had their sins purged away by the Jewish sacrifices made at that altar erected outside the tabernacle and later at the temple in Jerusalem. Only Israel’s sins were pardoned on the Day of Atonement when the High Priest entered the Holy of Holies with the blood of the sacrifice. Only the names of the twelve tribes of Israel were carried upon his breastplate. You look in vain for the names of Egypt, or Babylon, or Assyria and the rest. Full atonement was limited to the repentant, obedient, sacrificing people of God wasn’t it?"

Source

Just like those who were "ordained to eternal life" in Acts 13:48, when they preached to the whole town, only a certain number believed.

The Gospel message is to be preached to all men without exception, but only some will accept and believe.

Sorry.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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