Preterism: the Mark of the Beast

[Didaskomenos]

I'd like to know about the Preterists' take on the mark of the beast. I don't care what anyone else thinks - I'm only asking Preterists.

BTW, futurists, please hold your tongue (or fingers).

(Feel free to tell me who the Anti-Christ, Beast, the False Prophet, etc. are.)

Thanks!
P.S. I'm only interested in what the preterists say the mark of the beast is. Do you get it yet

 

[Pericles]

Originally posted by Didaskomenos
I'd like to know about the Preterists' take on the mark of the beast. I don't care what anyone else thinks - I'm only asking Preterists.

BTW, futurists, please hold your tongue (or fingers).

(Feel free to tell me who the Anti-Christ, Beast, the False Prophet, etc. are.)

Thanks!
P.S. I'm only interested in what the preterists say the mark of the beast is. Do you get it yet

Didaskomenos, thank you for the questions. These are excellent questions, and I'll make an attempt to answer.

The mark of the beast is not to be taken as a physical mark (tatoos, barcode labels, writings..etc). David Chilton, before he died, calculated Nero's name to be 666:

In my opinion, it is very likely that this is correct, especially since Revelation says that it is a man's number and it can be figured out. If someone comes up with a better explanation, I would definitely consider it.

Furthermore, I want to point out that there is little evidence of ONE antichrist. John writes the following:

"Children, it is the last hour and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared from this we know that it is the last hour"

"Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son."

"Every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world."

"For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist."

Now, if I read these passages and I believe God's word to be true, I cannot but accept the following facts:

1. The Antichrist is anyone that denies the Father and the Son. (the jews)
2. There were/are many antichrists
3. The antichrist(s) were already in existence at the time when John was writing (used the words "already here", "is")

I believe that the antichrist was proven to be the jews, the jewish worship system, the high priests. It was not just one person.

The beast I believe was Rome. As we well know, Rome was good ally of Israel (Babylon the prostitute), but then it turned on Israel and destroyed it. (as Revelation mentions)

According to Josephus there were many false prophets before and during the siege of Jerusalem, prophets that led to the destruction of many lives. If you need more details on this, I would be happy to provide them.

 

[Brian45]

Hello Pericles . If what you say is true and is in the past , does that mean the world must end twice ?

 

[Pericles]

Originally posted by Brian45
Hello Pericles . If what you say is true and is in the past , does that mean the world must end twice ?

No, it doesn't mean that.

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Brian45
Hello Pericles . If what you say is true and is in the past , does that mean the world must end twice ?

Actually, if you literalize every "end of the world" documented in scripture, we are on our 4th or 5th planet earth right now.

The truth is, however, that scripture testifies that the Kingdom, and the generations of man, and the earth itself are all to continue "forever" (Ps. 104:5; 145:13; Eccl. 1:4; Dan. 4:3,34; 7:14,18,27; Lk. 1:33; Eph. 3:21).

Now that's a blessing worth rejoicing for!!

 

[parousia70]

The mark, even if "future" (which it isn't), is not nor could be physical, for "worship" of the beast is part and parcle to having the mark. You can't make somebody worship from their heart something they do not wish to worship from their heart, no matter how many implants, barcodes, tatoos ,etc...you force upon them.

You must have the mark and worship the beast.

The mark, therefore, must be spiritual, for only God knows who worships who in their heart.

This should be quite obvious. It is to me anyway.

 

[Brian45]

According to the bible , how do they woship the beast ?

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by Brian45
According to the bible , how do they woship the beast ?

I don't know the exact answer to that but maybe 'beast worshipping' is like the Asherah poles in 1 Kings 14:23?

Just a guess

-Jason

 

[Bobcat]

I would agree with P70 above, the act of worship of the beast is the sin. Even if you see the Mark of the Beast as still future, realize barcodes, computer chips and the like aren't sinful, but acknowledging a human world leader as god is.

I stumbled on the following in John 19. I think it might shed some light about how the Jews of Jesus' day were ripe for accepting the Mark of the Beast (I believe in its first century fullfillment). Let me know what y'all think:

John 19:15 But they shouted, "Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!"
"Shall I crucify your king?" Pilate asked.
"We have no king but Caesar," the chief priests answered.

Not only did the chief priests reject the Son of God-the only Messiah they are ever gonna have-in the same breath they declared Caesar as their king. I'd say that wasn't too healthy for them (Josephus gives a pretty gruesome account of what happened to those characters).

As far as I know, the other gospels don't talk about Jews declaring Caesar as their king. Perhaps there's a relationship here between the above account in John's gospel and the Mark of the Beast prophecy that John recorded in Revelation?

 

[Brian45]

Revelation- 13:4 . And they worshiped the beast , saying , Who is like the beast ? Who is able to make war with him ?

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Brian45
Revelation- 13:4 . And they worshiped the beast , saying , Who is like the beast ? Who is able to make war with him ?

Excellent observation Brian!

Thanks for demonstrating that a microchip or barcode can not make anyone "worship" the beast.

YBIC,
P70

 

[Bobcat]

Apparantly there is actual physical evidence of emporer worship.

The following is from this link which was provided at the start of another thread in this forum (Definition Preterism from Liberty University) thanks to whoever provided it: http://www.liberty.edu/courses/theo250/preterism.html

b. NERO DEMANDED WORSHIP: Rev 13:5-8. Inscriptions have been found in Ephesus in which Nero is called "Almighty God" and "Savior." He and Caligula "abandoned all reserve" in promoting emperor worship - they were the only two who demanded divine honors while still alive. Nero claimed to be Apollo.

 

[GG_81]

Actually, if you literalize every "end of the world" documented in scripture, we are on our 4th or 5th planet earth right now.

What The

 

[Church Punk]

Didaskomenos, thank you for the questions. These are excellent questions, and I'll make an attempt to answer.

The mark of the beast is not to be taken as a physical mark (tatoos, barcode labels, writings..etc). David Chilton, before he died, calculated Nero's name to be 666:

I think the "mark" is physical.
Rev 13:16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Rev 13:17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


Or am I not understanding you?

 

[Suede]

Didaskomenos,



The best way to interpret the Bible when ever possible is with the Bible. Many of the 1st Century believers, Pre-70 AD, reading Revelation would have probably understood the ‘mark’ in Revelation 13:16 the same way they would have while reading Exodus 13:9 which reads,



“And it shall serve as a sign to you on your hand, and as a reminder on your forehead, that the law of the LORD may be in your mouth; for with a powerful hand the LORD brought you out of Egypt.”



This ‘sign’ is merely showing allegiance with the Lord. The same would be true to those worshipping the Beast, it probably wasn’t a literal sign like a tattoo or a branding or anything like that. There certainly were cases of Emperor worship like many have already stated, but I believe the audience would be more into Judaic roots and would interpret letters written by the apostles through those roots and older scrolls that made up what we call the Old Testament. I know many Preterists veer off course when it comes to the Mark in Rev, that is they seem to not attempt to interpret it Biblically, despite the fact that we are probably the most adept at interpreting the Bible with the Bible. It's an unfortunate mistake that there's still some 'residual Futurism' there. Oh well. But we must remember ultimately that it’s completely incorrect to superimpose our ‘modern times’ onto the Bible. The Bible was written for us, but not to us. We have to remember that the Bible made complete sense to the original audience-the ones that it's actually addresssed to. Always keep that in mind when reading the Bible. Take care,



SUEDE

 

[stauron]

I think the "mark" is physical.
Rev 13:16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Rev 13:17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


Or am I not understanding you?

14:1 Then I looked, and here was the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him were one hundred and forty-four thousand, who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.


I think it is facinating that it 13:17 is literal but 14:1 is spiritual/allegorical.

The parallel marks and purpose of the marks is very clear. It showed your allegience. One showed ownership by God and the other the harlot.

If the mark of God was 'seen' by faith the mark of the beast was too.

That quote from Exodus is a great one too, just demonstrates the common themes in the Bible.

 

[Hidden Manna]

Didaskomenos,



The best way to interpret the Bible when ever possible is with the Bible. Many of the 1st Century believers, Pre-70 AD, reading Revelation would have probably understood the ‘mark’ in Revelation 13:16 the same way they would have while reading Exodus 13:9 which reads,



“And it shall serve as a sign to you on your hand, and as a reminder on your forehead, that the law of the LORD may be in your mouth; for with a powerful hand the LORD brought you out of Egypt.”



This ‘sign’ is merely showing allegiance with the Lord. The same would be true to those worshipping the Beast, it probably wasn’t a literal sign like a tattoo or a branding or anything like that. There certainly were cases of Emperor worship like many have already stated, but I believe the audience would be more into Judaic roots and would interpret letters written by the apostles through those roots and older scrolls that made up what we call the Old Testament. I know many Preterists veer off course when it comes to the Mark in Rev, that is they seem to not attempt to interpret it Biblically, despite the fact that we are probably the most adept at interpreting the Bible with the Bible. It's an unfortunate mistake that there's still some 'residual Futurism' there. Oh well. But we must remember ultimately that it’s completely incorrect to superimpose our ‘modern times’ onto the Bible. The Bible was written for us, but not to us. We have to remember that the Bible made complete sense to the original audience-the ones that it's actually addresssed to. Always keep that in mind when reading the Bible. Take care,



SUEDE

Hi Suede,
I don't know how many times people associate the mark of the Beast with the number of his name, they are two different things.

NERO DEMANDED WORSHIP

Apparently there is actual physical evidence of emperor worship.

The following is from this link which was provided at the start of another thread in this forum (Definition Preterism from Liberty University) thanks to whoever provided it: http://www.liberty.edu/courses/theo250/preterism.html

b. NERO DEMANDED WORSHIP: Rev 13:5-8. Inscriptions have been found in Ephesus in which Nero is called "Almighty God" and "Savior." He and Caligula "abandoned all reserve" in promoting emperor worship - they were the only two who demanded divine honors while still alive. Nero claimed to be Apollo.

Nero's name also added up to 666

 

[Suede]

Hidden Manna,

+++I don't know how many times people associate the mark of the Beast with the number of his name, they are two different things.+++

You are correct. The number identifies the Beast and the mark is an invisible mark of association. I tend to think of it like 'understood groups'. Remember in High School how there were the 'in' crowds. There wasn't a specific badge or mark they all had, perhaps they dressed similar, but nothing specific. And yet everyone knew who they were with. Christians, especially in Jerusalem, would have been known. It would have actually been quite easy to discriminate against them, such as not sell to them. Paul had no problem finding them, Acts 8:3, when he was a persecutor of the Church, and Nero's 'dragnet' of Rome for Christians was highly successful.

Yes, Nero and a few other Emperors did in fact demand to be treated like gods. For some this was more of a legacy thing, post death. But for a few, including Nero, they demanded it while they were living. Biblical scholar N.T. Wright has done some excellent work showing that emperor worship was very, very active in the 1st century. So good in fact that I'm dumb founded why he is not a Preterist. Well...I guess you could call him a pseudo Preterist. But you are correct that it is an error to associate the mark with the name. Take care,

SUEDE

P.S. your link to Liberty University is dead.

 

[Hidden Manna]

Suede

If you have anything historical about this topic let me know please. I was a SDA for ten years and still have close friends who are SDA. SDA's are the only ones out there that I know have Daniel 9:24-27 right. It's when they take things into the future beyond 70 AD for a double fulfillment that they error.

 

[Suede]

Hidden Manna,

+++If you have anything historical about this topic let me know please.+++

I probably don't have any sites that you wouldn't already be familar with, but I will keep you in mind when I encounter something more of a historical nature. I'm currently reading a good book dealing with "End Times" by a well known cult scholar called 'End Time Visions' by Richard Abanes. Abanes is a Futurist, but his book subconciously makes an excellent case for Preterism. I found this at the library-the often forgotten source for knowledge. If you have some free time, I would recommend you try to read this book. A good Preterist site that you may already know is here,

http://www.strato.net/~dagreen/questionsandanswers2.html#note1

Dennis Green has done a great service answering things in a Q&A style. I usually refer people curious about Preterism to his Q&A section first thing. Granted, Green is a Calvinist so I don't agree with all of his interpretations since he is answering questions through a Calvinistic 'fliter', but as a whole he does a good job.

Another site that I enjoy for theology in general is an unofficial N.T.Wright site found here,

http://www.ntwrightpage.com/

Very good articles and excellent audio lectures. Though I don't agree with Wright on every single thing, he's got an awesome grasp of the Bible and it's context. His understanding of history and the Bible is powerful, I hope you download and listen to some of his lectures. His books are great too.

Glad to hear you got out of SDA. I was raised in a cultic type church, but eventually left it when it didn't match up with the Bible.

Let me ask you, have you ever looked into Christian Universalism? Take care,

SUEDE