Preterism debunked

[Blade]

pffft.. I am just going to RUN with think in dive into.. stay in what Keras said.. "when Jesus Returns to take".... Amen..

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

There are two different forms of preterism.

1) Partial preterism is generally considered to be the historic orthodox interpretation as it affirms all eschatological points of the ecumenical Creeds of the Church. Some partial preterists may believe that the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord were not historically fulfilled. (wikipedia)

2) Full preterism differs from partial preterism in that full preterists believe that the destruction of Jerusalem fulfilled all eschatological or "end times" events, including the resurrection of the dead and Jesus' Second Coming, or Parousia, and the Final Judgment. (wikipedia)

I assume you are referring to full preterism?

Yes, most of the time. I often don't distinguish the two. I think I'm right in presuming that most partial Preterists believe only the return of the Lord has to happen. But I'm not sure.

 

[klutedavid]

Yes, most of the time. I often don't distinguish the two. I think I'm right in presuming that most partial Preterists believe only the return of the Lord has to happen. But I'm not sure.

Some partial preterists may believe that the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord were not historically fulfilled.

 

[Residential Bob]

Where did I say the Christian age ends?

". . . Bible prophesies that tell us about the last few years of this Christian age." Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, but if you say an age has last years, then you say it has an end.

There was exactly 4000 years between Adam and Jesus, now there has

been nearly 2000 years of the Church age, soon to end with the glorious Return of Jesus, as is promised. Acts 1:11​

Again, as St. Paul said, "To him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever."

Or does the church continue while the Church Age ends? Somehow?

 

[Residential Bob]

Plus Jesus said explicitly, if someone says the Messiah has come, do not believe them (Matt. 24:23-28). The full preterist position, IMV, is actually heresy.

Jesus was right, of course.

In Revelation 20, we see that a false prophet is defeated and thrown into the abyss. Jesus warns of these false messiahs and prophets (Mt 24:5, 11, 24). These charlatans whom John also refers to as false teachers (Rv 2:14-15; 19:20) were not in short supply. Josephus reports that the Jewish Zealots suborned many false prophets to rally the people against Rome (Wars 6.5.2). The few decades following the crucifixion are often referred to as the Messianic Age, and with good reason. Many people claimed to be the messiah.

One individual who seduced a large following was Theudas, a self-proclaimed prophet whom Josephus calls a magician. This man deluded several hundred souls into following him to the Jordan River, which he promised to divide in order to provide passage through as they retreated from Rome. It did not work; Fadus, the Procurator of Judea, sent troops after him and his band, and captured and slew them. Theudas ended up beheaded (Antiquities 20.5.1).

Another false messiah who arose shortly after Christ was Judas the Galilean, who led a failed messianic movement to protest tribute to Rome, both in taxation and in allegiance to its emperor. Josephus doesn’t relate the death of Judas but does record the execution of his two sons (Antiquities 20.5.2), and calls him a teacher of his own peculiar sect (Wars 2.8.1), referring to the Zealots.

Doubts persist as to whether this Theudas and Judas of whom Josephus writes are the same as the two characters of whom Luke writes in the Book of Acts (5:36-37), but in either case, these false teachers came to nothing. In the end, their lives mattered not a whit to the world at large.

Luke records the fate of another false prophet, Bar-Jesus, after he opposes the Gospel that Paul and Barnabas preach (Acts 13:6-12). His life also came to nothing.

The last false messiah of note during the Jewish Wars was Simon bar Kokhba. Simon bar Kokhba led his insurgents in a revolt against Roman occupation in Judea after the Great Revolt and Kito’s War ended in failure for the Jews. History estimates that over half a million Jews were killed in this third and final campaign of the Jewish Wars, directly at the hands of the Romans and also due to famine and disease. The Bar Kokhba Revolt was the definitive and final message from God that His judgment had come, that the Temple Age had ended. It’s over; give it a rest already. Bar Kokhba died in the fortress of Betar, and like the false messiahs before him, was laid to rest without effecting the change he intended. Rome maintained its presence. The declining Jewish state came once and for all to a complete collapse and Judean identity utterly vanished.

The pseudo-christs who rose up to liberate Israel and Judea from their pagan overlords wooed followers with their boastful language and military prowess. They envisioned themselves claiming victories and returning home as heroes. They saw themselves ensconced in history as mighty warriors and faithful servants who would restore the glory of their homeland. They all failed.

Imposters were not unique to Judaism. In the fledgling church, they claimed not so much to be messiahs as teachers, and by that title led many astray, as we see in 2 Timothy 3:1-4.

In his short missive, Jude also alludes to the alarming number of boasters plaguing the church. He reminds his readers that Christ’s apostles warned that these scoffers would rise in the last days, and so he warns his contemporaries to excise them from the body, as they are the ones causing the division within it (17-19). This confirms the observations of other New Testament authors. John, for example, says in no uncertain terms that false teachers had already cropped up in the world (1 Jn 4:1, 3).

 

[Residential Bob]

I tend to agree with RC Sproul and others that the Church "Fathers" were wrong. Unless, of course we are to believe that Jesus and the apostles were wrong. Because, really, can we call Irenaeus a church father when the church had already been established?

The apostles were the real church fathers.

…skepitcal criticism of the Bible has become almost universal in the world. And people have attacked the credibility of Jesus. Maybe some church fathers made a mistake. Maybe our favorite theologians have made mistakes. I can abide with that. I can’t abide with Jesus being a false prophet, because if I am to understand that Jesus is a false prophet, my faith is in vain. – R.C. Sproul, Sr., “The Problem of Imminency,” Mt. Dora, FL: Covenant Eschatology Symposium, 1993​

 

[Residential Bob]

I just realized this is the eschatology forum, so I guess I've said enough.

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[Tayla]

There is zero indication from the church fathers that anyone understood the New Testament prophecies from a preterist perspective.

Also, they use the idea that such-and-such will come soon, just as the New Testament writers did.

 

[Eric Knick]

The events of AD 70-135 simply do not correlate to what is described in Revelation, or the over 100 other Bible prophesies that tell us about the last few years of this Christian age.

However most preterists do not say that Jesus has already Returned, they believe that glorious event is still future, but they place most or all of the other things prophesied to happen before the Day, as past events, even though the historical record does not support it.
This belief, I see as a denial of the facts, for their personal reasons.