Presuppositions

[LamorakDesGalis]

“After those days…” ASV (reading verse 32) refers to the “days” after the old covenant was given, and thus refers to a time when the NEW covenant shall be given.

"After those days" refers to the time when the Jews have returned to the land, exactly as Jeremiah said. You read the ASV? Well here is what the ASV said in 30:3 -

Jeremiah 30:3 3 For, lo, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will turn again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith Jehovah; and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.

But what you said earlier is the opposite of what God said in Jer 30:3

Returning and repossessing the land are two different things. Israel NEVER got it back, they do not get it back, and they do not need it back!

Shall we go with the ASV or what you said, Apollos?

Whoever these “scholars” may be, they, of necessity, must find some reference to “land” that isn’t there in the original language, or be willing to accept the NET’s COMMENTARY as you have.

When you make statements like the above, I really can't take you seriously. If you actually think non-dispensational Reformed scholars have a dispensational agenda, then that just goes to show how far your anti-dispensationalism is clouding your judgment.

If you want to oppose historical-grammatical interpretation of Jeremiah 31, that is not my problem. If you want to deny explicit Scripture passages which specify Israel's return to the promised land after the exile, that too is not my problem. Your issues go beyond dispensationalism and beyond the scope of the OP.

Oh, I see – you want to “shift gears” on me now. Earlier you were saying they had it, lost it, and will get it back. But now you want to quibble that Israel did not “fully” possess the land. But you see, God “gave” them the land – Joshua knew it and Israel knew it – Joshua 23:14.

I'm not the one shifting gears: your quotation marks around "fully" and "gave" show you are now backing away from a literal interpretation of Joshua. You admit that Israel did not literally possess all the promised land. Passages like 23:5 and 13:1-7 clearly show that more land remained to be conquered at the end of Joshua's life. Your admission is sufficient in itself to invalidate your argument.

God did not stop "giving" the land in Joshua's day. God originally promised the land to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and to their descendants. Moses knew he was leading the Israelites to the promised land. Joshua outlined the land that remained to be conquered in Joshua 13:1-7. Joshua knew the promise was to the descendants, which included those who came after him. David came long after Joshua, and yet David often referred to this same land promise:

1 Chronicles 16:15-18 15 Remember his covenant for ever, The word which he commanded to a thousand generations, 16 The covenant which he made with Abraham, And his oath unto Isaac, 17 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a statute, To Israel for an everlasting covenant, 18 Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, The lot of your inheritance;

1 Chronicles 28:8 8 Now therefore, in the sight of all Israel, the assembly of Jehovah, and in the audience of our God, observe and seek out all the commandments of Jehovah your God; that ye may possess this good land, and leave it for an inheritance to your children after you for ever.


Lamorak Des Galis

 

[Tychicum]

 

[Apollos1]

Tychicum -

Nice cartoon...

But I thought you and LDG were on the same "side"...

 

[Apollos1]

LDG –

Thank you for your reply, although I must admit I have trouble following your points at times as you skip from one passage to another without qualification or maintaining context.

In reference to Jeremiah 31:33 I said – “After those days…” ASV (reading verse 32) refers to the “days” after the old covenant was given, and thus refers to a time when the NEW covenant shall be given. Verse 32 sets the context for verse 33. To this you responded…


"After those days" refers to the time when the Jews have returned to the land, exactly as Jeremiah said. You read the ASV? Well here is what the ASV said in 30:3 –

Chapter 30 verse 3 - ??? “After those days…” in chapter 30 is speaking of different “days” ! You have gone back to chapter 30 to try to determine the CONTEXT of chapter 31 31). While this may work in some specific passages, it does not work here. The context of what Jeremiah is saying in 31:31 is easily determined by what is read in 31:32, not in 30:3, which speaks of a different time.

You then offered…

Jeremiah 30:3 - For, lo, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will turn again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith Jehovah; and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. [ASV]


And YOU said - But what you said earlier is the opposite of what God said in Jer 30:3.

(This is what I had said…) Returning and repossessing the land are two different things. Israel NEVER got it back, they do not get it back, and they do not need it back!

I mis-spoke – I was thinking of one thing and time and typing another – so you are not the only one with clarity problems. My regrets.

In regards to Jeremiah 30:3 (the start of what is called the “book of Consolation” = chapters 30-34), I believe the prophet is making reference to the return of the Jews under Zerubabel (537 BC), or the return under Ezra (457 BC), OR possibly both making it a dual fulfillment. But the Jews did return and possess the land.

BUT is this not problematic for your position ??!! It seems now you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

In your Post #2 this thread YOU said -
That means for example God will fulfill His promises to the nation of Israel, which includes the land promises.

By saying “will fulfill” you indicated that the promise of land is still future… and…

In Post #18 YOU said –
If Joshua in his old age spoke of a future time for his successors to possess the land God promised, then Joshua 23:14 can't mean the land was fully possessed in his day.

In direct contradiction of Joshua you attempt to claim NON-possession of the land, and therefore the lack of the land promise being fulfilled.

BUT now for discussion YOU introduce…
Jeremiah 30:3… I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. [ASV]

Jeremiah says two very important things he:
1.) God “gave to their fathers” the LAND !
2.)They shall POSSESS it – again!

Joshua and Jeremiah are trying to tell you something here LDG. Are you getting it???
(Pssst – the land promise WAS fulfilled !!! They POSSESSED the land !!)
<<<*>>>

In reference to your comment above from post #18 I replied…
Oh, I see – you want to “shift gears” on me now. Earlier you were saying they had it, lost it, and will get it back. But now you want to quibble that Israel did not “fully” possess the land. But you see, God “gave” them the land – Joshua knew it and Israel knew it – Joshua 23:14.

You replied - I'm not the one shifting gears: your quotation marks around "fully" and "gave" show you are now backing away from a literal interpretation of Joshua. You admit that Israel did not literally possess all the promised land.

This point is valid enough to respond to. “Fully” is your word and “gave” is mine. Your quibble is if Israel did not “fully” possess the land they did not possess it. This is just foolish and subjective.

But God “gave” Israel the land. God said take it – I will be with you. God gave them the land at that point (Joshua 23:14) in prospect, that is, there was no doubt and no failing with God! But let me bolster my point here with the facts.

Joshua and Israel’s conquest of the land Canaan was done in about 1400 BC. Israel remained in the land until the first captivity by the Assyrians – about 722 BC – and Judah even longer!
This was about 700 years !!! So tell me, HOW MANY generations of Israel and HOW LONG did Israel NOT possess the land ??? LOL!

YOU also said - …and yet David often referred to this same land promise: 1 Chronicles 16:15-18 …

If you will take notice, David is telling all to remember what God has done and remember the covenant God made with Abraham. Verse 19 says “When you were few… … and strangers in the land”. The passage confirms they were in and possess the land. Keep context in mind when you quote a passage!

YOU also included - 1 Chronicles 28:8 - Now therefore, in the sight of all Israel, the assembly of Jehovah, and in the audience of our God, observe and seek out all the commandments of Jehovah your God; that ye may possess this good land, and leave it for an inheritance to your children after you for ever.

In harmony with Joshua, David states to keep (possess, occupy – Hebrew yaresh) the land they must observe, seek out (serve) Jehovah God. There is nothing to indicate possession of the land was still future – they were there right in the middle of it! Lol.
<<<*>>>

Last for today – we had been discussing the NET version of the “Bible”. I took exception to their rendering of Jeremiah 31:31, and I said…

Whoever these “scholars” may be, they, of necessity, must find some reference to “land” that isn’t there in the original language, or [you must] be willing to accept the NET’s COMMENTARY as you have.

You replied - If you actually think non-dispensational Reformed scholars have a dispensational agenda, then that just goes to show how far your anti-dispensationalism is clouding your judgment.

Puh-leeze !!! We are talking about a group of dispys in a dispy organization founded by dispies THAT were so dissatisfied with every other TRANSLATION and VERSION in existence, that they had to “create” their OWN version. Please note, the NET is a VERSION – not a translation! We do not know WHO concocted this “bible” up. This thing reeks of agenda! And it can change tomorrow as the “scholars” whim.

(BTW – the J-W’s did the EXACT same thing. In order to promote their agenda, they concocted their version of the “bible” – the New World Translation. No one knows who the “scholars” were – the thing just appeared, but all were assured it was the “real deal”! Ha! So I expect the NET to top out on the cult reading Top 10 list before you know it…)

Then you added - If you want to oppose historical-grammatical interpretation of Jeremiah 31, that is not my problem.

I am not opposed to scholarly interpretation and translation that follow proper rules of hermeneutics and exegesis from the best manuscripts and partials available. But the NET is not such a work* and the “producers” do not follow such*! And yes, by accepting such a rag as the NET, it IS your problem !

 

[Tychicum]

Tychicum -

Nice cartoon...

But I thought you and LDG were on the same "side"...

You think this is a "game of sides"?


That is interesting ...

Why is it that you spend time in this the deep end of the pool ... with us poor dispensationalists?

 

[Tychicum]

I am not opposed to scholarly interpretation and translation that follow proper rules of hermeneutics and exegesis from the best manuscripts and partials available.

That's a relief. When are you going to start?

 

[Apollos1]

LDG -

And I thought I had little free time lately.

I was hoping by now to have a response from you in reference to Jermemiah 30:3 and the related issues above.

I understand it is quite problematic for you -but you are going to honestly address the issue - or at least concede as to what the truth is.

I look forward to your response...

 

[Apollos1]

Tychicum -

You said - Why is it that you spend time in this the deep end of the pool ... with us poor dispensationalists?

Your end of the pool needs some attention the most. You were all too smug down there barely making a splash and patting each other on the back with "Atta boys..." for what you all agreed on.

I felt the need to come along and try to get you to see that the "bi-gospels" you viewed the Bbile through were the wrong prescription.

Maybe you would like to explain Jeremiah 30:3 ???

I don't think LDG is going to make it.... Jump in!

 

[Kimberlyann]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]I liked the cartoon. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Jeremiah 16 [/FONT]
16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.


If our father inherited lies, what they pass on to us does not become truth by virtue of their sincerity. We are like the blind following the blind. And we will both fall into a ditch unless we have our eyes opened to the truth. If we are to live the truth then we must be willing to constantly challenge the traditions and teachings that we have inherited from our parents and religious systems.

 

[Tychicum]

If we are to live the truth then we must be willing to constantly challenge the traditions and teachings that we have inherited from our parents and religious systems.

So true ... so very true.

 

[Apollos1]

What?

No takers on Jeremiah 30:3...?

How disappointing........................................

 

[Tychicum]

What?

No takers on Jeremiah 30:3...?

How disappointing........................................

Jer 30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.

OK I believe this will be fulfilled. Please ... your tell us how the Church fulfills this and not Israel. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

I believe this is literal ... you will now tell me how it is spiritual and is fulfilled spiritually by the Church and not Israel. I will say no it says Israel and it means Israel.

So again ... what is the point? I believe it is literal ... you might believe with Kimberlyann that the Church "spriitually" fulfils it all and God has no intention of keeping that promise to Israel.

Maybe lets have Kimberlyann explain it to you.

What say you Kimberleyann ... ?

.

 

[Apollos1]

Tychy -

Uh... back in Post #5 of this thread LDG and I began talking about the "land promise" God gave to Abraham and how that promise was fulfilled - as affirmed by Joshua 24:14.

LDG dissented saying Israel had not "fully" possessed the land (thus did not "really" possess it) and used the NET version of Jeremiah 31:31 in an attempt to prove Israel would be "planted back" in the land, words which are not in the manuscripts and not rendered as such in real translations. (But then, if Israel was to be "planted back" it does prove they were already there, huh?)

The "land promise" is seen as crucial to those who say there is going to be an earthly kingdom set-up in Jerusalem some day (there isn't !), and therefore these want to claim God must yet GIVE the land to Israel because of this foolish "kingdom (yet to) come" notion.

LDG then offered Jeremiah 30:3 - which in a word proved to be problematic for all who attempt to claim Israel did not get the land. Jeremiah, as Joshua before him, states not only did they get the land, they got it back - "repossessed" the land. Israel had the land for hundreds of years, since the time of Joshua! (cf. Acts 13:19)

Israel lost the land because they sinned - as Joshua said would happen if they sinned!

The CONTEXT of what LDG and I were talking about is the LAND and did Israel possess it - not some Israel vs.church fulfillment.

So you ask, What is the point?

As of now it would be to ask you to know what is being discussed before you hurriedly stick your nose into something where you find that you do not know what you are talking about! Oh, and embarrass yourself - lol!

I think kimberlyann can explain that to you...

 

[eph3Nine]

The LAND and its promised possession by none other than the NATION ISRAEL is still very much in the picture. God is NOT a liar and WILL fulfill ALL the promises made to Israel. What you dont seem to understand is that along with the promises came curses, under the program of times PAST and ages to Come. That program has been INTERRUPTED by the Mystery revealed of BUT NOW of Eph 2:11,12, 13 and verse 7 , which shows Times PAST, But NOW, and ages to come.

Ages to come and times PAST both deal with Gods program with Israel.

WE are in the BUT NOW...or the MYSTERY revealed portion of Gods dealings with mankind. Israel still has ONE course of curses left to undergo in her agreement with God and she WILL see it come to pass.

The Bible comes together quite nicely if one simply rightly divides.

 

[Apollos1]

While I wait to see if Tychicum repsonds, I just want to say that nothing planned by God was interrupted by man - LOL !!

The gospel plan - that God before the creation of the world planned the salvation of all men through the shed blood of Jesus Christ upon the cross - was always the plan and the only plan.

Those that parse it up can not see what God had in mind before the world began. That's a long time, huh?

 

[eph3Nine]

What many dont seem to recognize is that God HAD a plan for heaven AND the earth...TWO realms which He created and had RIGHTFUL rule over. Satan usurped that plan and purpose, or so he thinks. What he DIDNT know was the revelation of the MYSTERY given to Paul....THAT wasnt prophesied, and if they HAD known it, the scripture says "they wouldnt have crucified the Lord of Glory". So...God DID have a SECRET plan....that only those who study the word rightly divided can SEE.

Wink.

 

[Apollos1]

LOL !!!

 

[eph3Nine]

LOL !!!

Uh huh...and just what do you DO with the scripture that talks about the mystery that was HID IN GOD, untraceable in the OT, a SECRET, that if satan and his angels had KNOWN, they would NOT have crucified Him?

Do yourself a favor and do a word search on the word MYSTERY, UNSEARCHABLE, Hid in God.

You make a stupid joke because you are UNEDUCATED in what the Bible DOES say...which is what God calls "ignorant", and what Paul warns us NOT to be. We are told by Paul NOT to be IGNORANT of the mysteries of God...which we have been entrusted with. Can you tell me what those mystery truths ARE, sir?

Fourteen doctrines found NOWHERE but in Pauls epistles and rightfully called "The MYSTERY"....also, while youre at it...explain to me what Ephesians 3 Nine means, will ya?

We are to be joining God in HIS GOAL of "making ALL men SEE what IS the fellowship of the MYSTERY.....which was ...uh oh...HID ????? You dont know as much as you think you do, and should be ashamed of yourself for passing yourself off as a scholar of sorts...you aint even close.

Read Gen 1:1.....TWO realms that God created in which He DOES indeed have a plan and purpose. Because you are IGNORANT of that fact, doesnt make the issue the least bit FUNNY...except for YOU!

 

[Apollos1]

What – no takers on Jeremiah 30:3 ??? What about Joshua 24:14 ???

I certainly thought all the “land promise” promoters would flock over here to correct me on the land promise having NOT been fulfilled. Where are they?

Just what will Christ do if He returns and has no place to set up that supposed earthly reign ??
<<<*>>>

Now to the only detractor…

The LAND and its promised possession by none other than the NATION ISRAEL is still very much in the picture.

How so? And please include the SCRIPTURES you use to confirm that Israel is STILL or is YET to receive the land God promised. You must show that Israel is somehow going to get the land in the future, and that up until now, Israel had NOT received the land.

Can you do this????
<<<*>>>

Uh huh...and just what do you DO with the scripture that talks about the mystery that was HID IN GOD, untraceable in the OT, a SECRET, that if satan and his angels had KNOWN, they would NOT have crucified Him?

You may be making a cryptic reference to – 1 Corinthians 2:7-11.

7but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, [even] the [wisdom] that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds unto our glory:
8which none of the rulers of this world hath known: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory:
9but as it is written, Things which eye saw not, and ear heard not, And [which] entered not into the heart of man, Whatsoever things God prepared for them that love him.
10But unto us God revealed [them] through the Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For who among men knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of the man, which is in him? even so the things of God none knoweth, save the Spirit of God. ASV

Here is the synopsis:

Verse 7 – We are speaking God’s hidden wisdom, His “mystery” (NOT a secret) – planned before the world.
Verse 8 – Even earth’s “best” (princes) did not understand - else God’s plan (Christ dying for man’s sins) would have been prevented.
Verse 9 – No one comprehended what God had prepared for His own.
Verse 10 – The Spirit has revealed the unknown plans (mystery) to man.
Tell me who the “US” is in this verse !!!
Verse 11 - There was no way for man to comprehend the spiritual plan unless the Spirit revealed it.

But it IS traceable in the OT – Romans 16:25 and 1 Peter 1:10 say so!

So that is what I do with 1 Corinthians 2:7-11. Okay?

 

[eph3Nine]

Blah blah blah......yawn.