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The happy Objectivist

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Read my signature...the Names in red...that relationship.

As far as our realities as individuals--they depend on the relationship of our parents.
OK, now I see what you mean. Yes I agree that I exist because my parents had a relationship. But they didn't just wish me into existence. They took physical action and I was the result. But this does not address the issue of primacy.
 
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Tone

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Is your statement that reality is decided by some controlling group true because you want it to be true or is it true regardless of anyone's thoughts to the contrary

It is true to what I observe going down, like wars and politicking.

If anyone thinks that there is one uniform "reality" to be observed here on earth, they are wrong.

I mean, there is a really real reality, but we cannot observe it just yet, so we have all our fragments and sometimes you will get groups of people attempting to piece them all together.
 
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The happy Objectivist

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It is true to what I observe going down, like wars and politicking.

If anyone thinks that there is one uniform "reality" to be observed here on earth, they are wrong.

I mean, there is a really real reality, but we cannot observe it just yet, so we have all our fragments and sometimes you will get groups of people attempting to piece them all together.
Ok, now I see what you mean. I don't dispute the fact that the actions men take are dependent on their conscious choices.

I'm off to bed now, I'll take this up tomorrow if you don't mind.
 
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Tone

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I see. What is the relationship that this God's consciousness has with the things it is aware of. Is it one best expressed by the primacy of consciousness or one best expressed by the primacy of existence. Let me make sure you know what each of these options means.

Primacy of consciousness: Reality is dependent in some way on consciousness.

Primacy of existence: Reality exists and is what it is independent of consciousness.

I can't imagine (another faculty of being) how the Author of Personhood relates to those things...except that He wouldn't be dependent on anything.
 
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The happy Objectivist

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I can't imagine (another faculty of being) how the Author of Personhood relates to those things...except that He wouldn't be dependent on anything.
OK, you're still not getting what I'm asking and that's OK, I understand that these are probably new issues for you. I don't think you are trying to be evasive. I'm going to try one more time. The question was not whether or not this "Godhead" is dependent on anything but what relationship exists between its consciousness and its objects, the things that it is aware of. Do its objects conform to its conscious will or do they exist independent of it?
 
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Olmhinlu

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Validation of axioms is the easiest of all, sense perception. Just look at reality. Do things exist? Is there a reality? Are things what they are or are they something other than what they are? When you are conscious are you conscious of something or are you conscious of nothing?

I don't disagree with these but as a fun aside: existence seems hard to argue with, identity seems to be a quality of language rather than reality itself, and the sentence about consciousness presupposes an 'I'... but I'm no Buddhist - just playing the proverbial devil's advocate there...

The facts of reality. Observation and induction. That's how the vast majority of new knowledge is acquired by man. Induction is essentially a process of abstraction.

How do you define inductive reasoning?
 
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The happy Objectivist

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I don't disagree with these but as a fun aside: existence seems hard to argue with
Um, yeah, it would be kind of hard to argue anything unless you exist.

, identity seems to be a quality of language rather than reality itself
So nothing that exists has any attributes until we assign them by attacking a word to them? So a tree is not a tree until we call it a tree? That is what you are saying, that nothing is anything in particular except for words, they have identity but not a tree. Name for me one thing that is real but that has no attributes, is nothing in particular.

, and the sentence about consciousness presupposes an 'I'... but I'm no Buddhist - just playing the proverbial devil's advocate there...
Yeah, what's wrong with that? When you perceive an apple on a table, is the apple distinct from you or are you one and the same.


How do you define inductive reasoning?
Induction is inferring from the particular to the general. Deduction is applying a general principle in order to infer a particular conclusion.
 
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Tone

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[W]hat relationship exists between [YHWH's] consciousness and [His] objects, the things that [He] is aware of. Do [His] objects conform to [His] conscious will or do they exist independent of it?

I edited it for clarity.

Hmmmm, this is a tough one, because who can analyze the Creator Who Is Holy Holy Holy?

He isn't fragmented like us.

I'll need some time to see what is revealed in Scripture on this subject.

Do you consider persons objects?
 
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The happy Objectivist

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I edited it for clarity.

Hmmmm, this is a tough one, because who can analyze the Creator Who Is Holy Holy Holy?

He isn't fragmented like us.

I'll need some time to see what is revealed in Scripture on this subject.

Do you consider persons objects?

Take your time, please. An object is anything which we perceive or consider. And I refuse to apply gender to something that is not biological. That would be to steal concepts.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Yeah, what's wrong with that? When you perceive an apple on a table, is the apple distinct from you or are you one and the same.

From my lying, dishonest, evil point of view, I'd say that an answer to your question may depend upon the conceptual analytic and hermeneutical praxis of the particular theorist you might deign to pose this question to.

Just say'n.

I mean, allow me to lie further and say what isn't true---maybe even push up a bold lie, offered straight in the face of each and every Objectivist of Randian brand who is living in the world: Ayn Rand isn't the only theorist who has pondered the question of identity, essence and existence. But of course, you don't have to heed what I say because I'm saying it.

Maybe just place me on ignore since---well hell---I'm lying bold-faced!!! :eheh:
 
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Tone

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[W]hat relationship exists between [YHWH's] consciousness and [His] objects, the things that [He] is aware of. Do [His] objects conform to [His] conscious will or do they exist independent of it?


Here's Personal Relationship:

The Father is aware of the Son and the Holy Spirit and they are One.

The Son is aware of the Father and the Holy Spirit and they are One.

The Holy Spirit is aware of the Father and the Son and they are One.

*I would tentatively say They are interdependent.
 
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Tone

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Here is His relationship to things:

The Father is invisible, eternal, and immaterial.
So, I cannot speak much on a realm I do not know.
It is revealed that physical objects conform to the invisible.


The Son was visible, temporal, and incarnate.
So, He lived a life similar to ours in that His conscious mind was impressed by material objects. However, there are accounts where objects were subject to His conscious will, such as turning water into wine, etc...
Though, I really can't say whether this was solely via His conscious will or by some other power, or by the wholeness of His Being, or all of it together.

The Holy Spirit I can only describe as the One Who Is Power throughout the subject/object dichotomy.

These are my tentative thoughts on this issue. I'll still need some time to dig.
 
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The happy Objectivist

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Here's Personal Relationship:

The Father is aware of the Son and the Holy Spirit and they are One.

The Son is aware of the Father and the Holy Spirit and they are One.

The Holy Spirit is aware of the Father and the Son and they are One.

*I would tentatively say They are interdependent.
But if they are one, they are not independent. That's is self-contradictory. If God wills water to become wine, will it become wine?
 
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Tone

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But if they are one, they are not independent. That's is self-contradictory. If God wills water to become wine, will it become wine?

Did you mean "interdependent"?

God (the Son) did make water into wine, though, Im not sure if He only utilized His conscious will or not.

*After rereading the account, He instructed the servants to do some things.

John 2:1-11
 
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The happy Objectivist

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Here is His relationship to things:

The Father is invisible, eternal, and immaterial.
So, I cannot speak much on a realm I do not know.
It is revealed that physical objects conform to the invisible.


The Son was visible, temporal, and incarnate.
So, He lived a life similar to ours in that His conscious mind was impressed by material objects. However, there are accounts where objects were subject to His conscious will, such as turning water into wine, etc...
Though, I really can't say whether this was solely via His conscious will or by some other power, or by the wholeness of His Being, or all of it together.

The Holy Spirit I can only describe as the One Who Is Power throughout the subject/object dichotomy.

These are my tentative thoughts on this issue. I'll still need some time to dig.
Sorry, I didn't see this response before I replied to your other one and I had asked the very question about water and wine. Thank you very much for answering. Get back to me after you've had some time to chew on it more, please.
 
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The happy Objectivist

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From my lying, dishonest, evil point of view, I'd say that an answer to your question may depend upon the conceptual analytic and hermeneutical praxis of the particular theorist you might deign to pose this question to.

Just say'n.

I mean, allow me to lie further and say what isn't true---maybe even push up a bold lie, offered straight in the face of each and every Objectivist of Randian brand who is living in the world: Ayn Rand isn't the only theorist who has pondered the question of identity, essence and existence. But of course, you don't have to heed what I say because I'm saying it.

Maybe just place me on ignore since---well hell---I'm lying bold-faced!!! :eheh:
very well, you are on the ignore list.
 
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Tone

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*After rereading the account, He instructed the servants to do some things.

John 2:1-11

Psalms 119:91
"Your laws endure to this day, for all things serve you."

Then again, creation and all of its laws are His servants, so if He instructs H2O to become whatever the formula for wine is, it will be.

Just on His Word alone.


*The wine was probably something like this:

C6H14OS...but, you know, subscripts...
 
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The happy Objectivist

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Psalms 119:91
"Your laws endure to this day, for all things serve you."

Then again, creation and all of its laws are His servants, so if He instructs H2O to become whatever the formula for wine is, it will be.

Just on His Word alone.


*The wine was probably something like this:

C6H14OS...but, you know, subscripts...
Thank you very much for confirming that your worldview affirms the primacy of consciousness. Do you know that you are the first person to do this in over 15 years of discussions with Theists?
 
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