Preserved Saints

There are no authentic incorrupt bodies (Except Christ, of couse, about whom the scripture was written). It is a lie. It is an illusion.

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how could you possibly know that. this statement is just like those people who say there is absolutely no God. well how the heck could you possibly know that for a fact, and are you sure you're not denying a miracle of God?

Do you think it's a coincidence that this practice began around the time of the Reformation? It's about power...maintaining it.

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thats just not true at all. Mary Magdalene's hand is on Mt. Athos and we also have St. John Chrysostom's hand, and there are many many many many many other pre-Reformation saints whose relics are around. i dont know hwere you got such an idea.

I would come back and haunt ya'll for disturbing my grave and bones and keep digging me up putting me back....that is just obscene to do with a body anyway. Sheesh, ever heard of rest in PEACE??

"haunting" sounds kinda pagan to me

Thekla said:

"haunting" sounds kinda pagan to me

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no what is creepy is folk going around digging up peoples bones and putting them in churches. THAT sounds pagan....and disturbing..in more ways than one.

HadessahRose said:

no what is creepy is folk going around digging up peoples bones and putting them in churches. THAT sounds pagan....and disturbing..in more ways than one.

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as explained -- bones are removed from graves because of space constraints; thats not pagan, its practical

Thekla said:

as explained -- bones are removed from graves because of space constraints; thats not pagan, its practical

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first time I ever heard of that. But it is still creepy and gross. Rest in PEACE..not be disturbed to make other people happy...and think they are miracles.

HadessahRose said:

first time I ever heard of that. But it is still creepy and gross. Rest in PEACE..not be disturbed to make other people happy...and think they are miracles.

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It happens in regions where there's not much space. The body is allowed to fully decompose, and then the bones are gathered for storage in an ossuary. In the US, because there is so much space, this does not happen.

The remains are treated respectfully, of course.

Thekla said:

It happens in regions where there's not much space. The body is allowed to fully decompose, and then the bones are gathered for storage in an ossuary. In the US, because there is so much space, this does not happen.

The remains are treated respectfully, of course.

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Typically the ossuary is left alone until the next person's bones enter. Or if the land is invaded and the invaders decide to sack the monastery of whatever little value there is to be had.

Although, what should be noted, is that relics are sent abroad in the cases of Saints. Typically, not the ordinary Joe Orthodox.

I think they do that in Germany. You can have a grave for so long and the family has to pay to keep them there but if they can't pay, they dig them up and give the grave to another.

All this talk about keeping relics reminds me of the chapel at St. Catherine's that houses the skulls of the monks that have lived there.

HadessahRose said:

first time I ever heard of that. But it is still creepy and gross. Rest in PEACE..not be disturbed to make other people happy...and think they are miracles.

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Well, in fact when we mourn those who have died -- its not for them, but that we miss them -- in a way its selfish. Ultimately, for a Christian, when our brother or sister joins God in heaven, this is a time of respectful joy.

HisdaughterJen said:

Gee whiz...you haven't even quoted the entire account. There are two or three doctors accounts posted on the link. I have underlined the descriptions that detail that the body is decomposing or at least mummified. It certainly isn't as soft and supple as the day she died.

No, because she's mummified by all the carbon and salt thrown into her coffins over the years. ​

DO a little research. There are many carbon-based preservatives. Whoever threw the carbon and calcium salts and crystals in the coffin had one purpose in mind...and it still didn't work. All they did was mummify the body.​

Read the DOCTOR's accounts. Carbon was in the first coffin. The quote above literally says (in bold) that the skin is covered in mildew and "quite a large number of crystals and calcium salts". Someone is trying very hard to preserve (in a crude way) the woman to perpetuate an illusion.​

What miracle? Her nose was dilated and shruken. Her skin was shriveled and gray. Her muscles had atrophied. She had mildew all over her skin...what does the Bible say about mold and mildew?

Lev 13:52He must burn up the clothing, or the woven or knitted material of wool or linen, or any leather article that has the contamination in it, because the mildew is destructive; the article must be burned up.


So, who's kidding whom here?

Here's the verse of scripture that this entire charade is based on:
Psa 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will rest secure,
Psa 16:10 because you will not abandon me to the grave,[fn3]
nor will you let your Holy One[fn4] see decay.
Psa 16:11 You have made[fn5] known to me the path of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence,
with eternal pleasures at your right hand.

This is talking about JESUS!

Does anybody stop and think about this? People are digging up bodies, throwing "preservatives" in coffins, putting the bodies on display in various stages of decomposition and/or mummification, covering some with wax and saying, "Look...it's incorruptible!", even while the bodies themselves are turning all shades of colors and shriveling up before your eyes.

Are people really that hard up for a miracle from God?

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You have reminded me of the fallowing episode involving Emile Zola's an Atheist who visited to Lourdes in 1892. The French Novelist, who prided himself on his anticlericalism and atheism, was witness to one of many miraculous cures . Marie Lemarchand was described by Sola as having"a case of Lupus which had preyed on the unhappy woman's nose and mouth.
The cartilage of the nose was almost eaten away, the mouth was drawn up all on one side by the swollen condition of the upper lip. The whole was a frightful distorted mass of matter and oozing blood".
The 18 year old was taken to the baths and came out completely healed, yet Zola told the director of the medical Bureau, "were i to see all of the sick at Lourdes cured, i would not believe in a miracle".

Trento said:

You have reminded me of the fallowing episode involving Emile Zola's an Atheist who visited to Lourdes in 1892. The French Novelist, who prided himself on his anticlericalism and atheism, was witness to one of many miraculous cures . Marie Lemarchand was described by Sola as having"a case of Lupus which had preyed on the unhappy woman's nose and mouth.
The cartilage of the nose was almost eaten away, the mouth was drawn up all on one side by the swollen condition of the upper lip. The whole was a frightful distorted mass of matter and oozing blood".
The 18 year old was taken to the baths and came out completely healed, yet Zola told the director of the medical Bureau, "were i to see all of the sick at Lourdes cured, i would not believe in a miracle".

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Are you aware that demons are sometimes the cause of diseases? You only have to read the New Testament to understand that. Jesus would rebuke demons and the people would be healthy again.

Now, God can do anything and can heal a person at any time.

Having said that, let's consider the "darker forces" and their little tricks. Idolatry is a sin...one that really, really makes God mad. You will lose your eternal reward for practicing it according to the scriptures.
Since demons/devil are aware of this, what better way to keep men in idolatry than trick them into it.
How can that be accomplished? Ooze oil, sounds, scents seemingly from the bodies and relics of the dead so that people "venerate" them (keeping in mind that "venerate" is a form or worship, just not the "highest" form reserved for God according the the RCC). Better yet, grip someone with an illness (like is found in New Testament accounts) and then release them at the opportune moment when the human is venerating some bones. It helps perpetuate the idolatry. Who gets the glory? Do people drop to their knees right where they are and praise the God of Heaven or do they rush to the tomb of so and so hoping to see a miracle from the relics?

You see it time and again with crying statues and what not.

Jesus said that we would perform many miracles, drive out demons, heal people. What statue did Jesus make cry?

No, I see miracles all the time and have even experienced them...real ones. And I didn't need to venerate an object or pray to spirits in order to do so.

Did Jesus ever say, "oh holy saint Moses, ask God to cure this man of this horrible disease." NO!

Did Jesus ever pull out a relic or bone of a dead man and "venerate" it, expecting a miracle? NO!

Maybe we should seek the Biblical definition of idolatry...

Exd 20:3"You shall have no other gods before* me.

Funny that God never parsed words when it came to idolatry.


"The ordinary English speaking person generally does not use the terms latria, hyperdulia and dulia. He uses the words adoration for latria, veneration for hyperdulia and veneration for dulia. He may use super-veneration for hyperdulia.
The honor given to God through latria or adoration is the highest honor that can be given. It recognizes God as being the Creator, Redeemer and Sanctifier. God is infinite. He is all good in Himself. Obviously He is our just judge. None of that honor can be given to a creature, and if it is done it is idolatry. Hyperdulia or super veneration is given to only one created being, and that is the Blessed Virgin Mary. It shows that Mary, the Mother of God, is so highly blessed and endowed by God that she stands alone in her class. She is above all the angels and all the Saints. She is the Queen of Heaven. Dulia or veneration goes to all the good angels and to all the Saints. No matter how good a person is he will not receive veneration in the Catholic Church until he is declared venerable and finally a Saint by the Church."

From: http://www.truecatholic.org/pope/honor.htm


I'd love to know the scripture that says "Mary is so highly blessed and endowed by God that she stands alone in her class".

Class of what? Diety's? She is after all the "Mother of God", the "Queen of Heaven".

So here's the classes:
1. God
2. Mary
3. Angels and "Saints" (dead, but living spirits thereof)

And here's the form of worship for each:
1. God = Latria
2. Mary = super-veneration or hyper-dulia
3. Angels/Saints = dulia

Notice that this truly isn't defined as "honor" because husband/wife/mother/father aren't on this "A" list. All of the above people are in heaven so in order to "contact" them, you'd have to pray. Nobody sees anything wrong with this picture?

PS: You don't have to be an atheist to see something is not quite right here. God performs miracles all the time that glorify HIM. It isn't about whether or not I believe in miracles. It's about following God's instructions to a tee!

HisdaughterJen said:

Certainly not!

But, you see, it is all about maintaining power after the schism and Reformation. Do you have any idea what kind of power the RCC had in the Holy Roman Empire? They lost a lot of it when the EO broke off and the Reformation happened. Imagine if they had not happened...There'd be 2 BILLION Catholics...if not more on the planet right now.

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Yep !
There was a time when Christianity ruled the Roman empire .Emperor Theodsius united Eastern and Western Empires for the last time about 375 AD, the first Emperor to hail from the west in over a half century. He was Catholic and dealt a deathblow to paganism and the Arian Heresy.In 380 he issued a `joint edict with Emperor Gration (spelling?) defining Christianity as "the religion which was taught by St.Peter to the Romans which Tradition has preserve and was now professed by Pontiff Damasus" and by Peter bishop of Alexandria. A famous incident during the reign of Theodosuis which preceded the beginnings of medieval Christendom in 390 AD happened after a Roman General was killed by a mob in Thessalonica .Theodosuis ordered a swift and awful punishment to that city killing at least 7000 there acrime of revenge.
St. Ambrose Bishop of Milan was a confessor of Emperors wrote to him and told the emeror his hands were stained with blood and was not worthy to recieve the body of Christ and to do penance. Theodosius appeared in Ambrose's Church in Milan stripped of all symbols of imperial power begging forgiveness which was granted him after a penitential period which lasted eight months. In St. Ambrose words" stripping himself of every emblem of royalty publicly bewailing his sin."the Roman emperor, commander of all Rome’s legions, could be forced to do penance by AN UNAREMED Bishop of Milan.
If you study the forth century you find it starting with Decius's and Diocletian's anti Christian persecutions and ending with a mighty successor warrier to the Imperial purple prostrating himself in penitence before a Bishop and Saint.
Cardinal Newman's remark that "to be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant". Protestantism understands this, which is why it created a religion based solely on the Bible.The argument from history is virtually irrefutable – it is in fact what brought Newman into the Catholic Church.
We now know for a fact from secular historians – that the “black legends” of the Church, are just that: myths.
It was the Church’s genius to marry their virtues with the virtues of high Roman civilization and incorporate both within the Church, consecrating formerly barbarian swords for Christian ends, reconciling barbarian concepts of honor and loyalty with Catholic concepts of faith and fidelity.

It was one of the great historic tragedies of Reformation Protestantism that it broke this Church check and guide on the martial spirit by saying that the power of the state was scriptural and that the power of the Church was not. It sanctified the idea that might makes right, and the idea that the Church was of marginal importance to society, civilization, and politics. It undid the work of centuries.

Hitler Stalin et el made the twentieth century a century of genocide and two world wars. No longer could a Bishop order a state leader to do penance by prostrating himself stripping himself of every emblem of royalty publicly bewailing his sin as was done to Roman emperor Theodosius.
The Church is now and has always been a counter balance to nationalism and to the nation-state. Progress" as conceived by the modern liberal and socialist mind is an illusion,AND the anti-utopian way of the Church is the only hope against the messianic dreams of the state and its drive to create its own Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.

HisdaughterJen said:

Authentically decaying corpses?

There are no authentic incorrupt bodies (Except Christ, of couse, about whom the scripture was written). It is a lie. It is an illusion.

Do you think it's a coincidence that this practice began around the time of the Reformation? It's about power...maintaining it.

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Strawman.


These are all discovered before the Reformation.

St. Rita of Cascia - Died in 1457. Her body is on display in a glass case in the Basilica of St. Rita in Cascia, Italy. It is also publicly known that her body has been seen in different positions in the glass case, as well as eyes have opened and closed unaided.
Bl. Margaret of Metola (Castello) - Died in 1320 and was found incorrupt in 1558. Her body is on display under the high altar of the Church of St. Domenico at Citta-di-Castello, Italy.
St. Zita - Died in 1278 and her body is on display in a glass reliquary in the Basilica of St. Frediano in Lucca, Italy. See photo below

St. Sperandia - Died in 1276 her body is on display in the Benedictine convent church of Cingoli, Italy. Her body was exhumed eight different times, the last in 1952. It is still incorrupt to this day and exudes a sweet fragrance.
Saint Alphege - Was Archbishop of Canterbury and was captured, put in prison, and eventually murdered by his captors in 1012. Ten years later his perfectly incorrupt body was discovered.
Saint Withburga - Died in 743 and incorrupt body was discovered 55 years later. Her remains were on display for over 300 more years thereafter until destroyed during the Reformation.
Saint Agatha - Died in 251 and body was discovered incorrupt in the eleventh century. Parts of her incorrupt body are still in existence today.


Saint Cecilia - Died in 177 and body was discovered incorrupt in 1499, is known to be the first saint to be incorrupt.

Three months ago i was close enough to an incorruptable nuns body to toch her hand. Her skin is as soft and supple as the day she died over a hundred years ago.

HisdaughterJen said:

Does anybody stop and think about this? People are digging up bodies, throwing "preservatives" in coffins, putting the bodies on display in various stages of decomposition and/or mummification, covering some with wax and saying, "Look...it's incorruptible!", even while the bodies themselves are turning all shades of colors and shriveling up before your eyes.

Are people really that hard up for a miracle from God?

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2Ki 13:20And Elisha died, and they buried him. And the bands of the Moabites invaded the land at the coming in of the year.

2Ki 13:21And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band [of men]; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.

Trento said:

Strawman.


These are all discovered before the Reformation.

St. Rita of Cascia - Died in 1457. Her body is on display in a glass case in the Basilica of St. Rita in Cascia, Italy. It is also publicly known that her body has been seen in different positions in the glass case, as well as eyes have opened and closed unaided.
Bl. Margaret of Metola (Castello) - Died in 1320 and was found incorrupt in 1558. Her body is on display under the high altar of the Church of St. Domenico at Citta-di-Castello, Italy.
St. Zita - Died in 1278 and her body is on display in a glass reliquary in the Basilica of St. Frediano in Lucca, Italy. See photo below

St. Sperandia - Died in 1276 her body is on display in the Benedictine convent church of Cingoli, Italy. Her body was exhumed eight different times, the last in 1952. It is still incorrupt to this day and exudes a sweet fragrance.
Saint Alphege - Was Archbishop of Canterbury and was captured, put in prison, and eventually murdered by his captors in 1012. Ten years later his perfectly incorrupt body was discovered.
Saint Withburga - Died in 743 and incorrupt body was discovered 55 years later. Her remains were on display for over 300 more years thereafter until destroyed during the Reformation.
Saint Agatha - Died in 251 and body was discovered incorrupt in the eleventh century. Parts of her incorrupt body are still in existence today.


Saint Cecilia - Died in 177 and body was discovered incorrupt in 1499, is known to be the first saint to be incorrupt.

Three months ago i was close enough to an incorruptable nuns body to toch her hand. Her skin is as soft and supple as the day she died over a hundred years ago.

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I just did a search for the people (bodies) you mentioned. Those that have photos show decaying or mummified corpses.

These bodies are indeed "seeing decay" and do not live up to the scripture:
Act 2:26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will live in hope,
Act 2:27 because you will not abandon me to the grave,
nor will you let your Holy One see decay.
Act 2:28 You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.’[fn5]

Act 2:29 “Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.
Act 2:30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne.
Act 2:31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ,[fn6] that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay.
Act 2:32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact.
Act 2:33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.


Again, they've taken a scripture, applied it to themselves and run wild with it. Those corpses are in various stages of decay/mummification or have wax masks (ala mdme. Trussauds) to perpetuate an APPEARANCE of no decay...an illusion...a lie.

There is only one body that has never seen decay...that of Christ!

I don't understand how people are falling for this...someone in a position of authority points to corpses in various stages of decay and/or mummification and say, "It's incorruptible!" and people just nod their heads in agreement...?! It's unbelievable.

HisdaughterJen said:

I just did a search for the people (bodies) you mentioned. Those that have photos show decaying or mummified corpses.

These bodies are indeed "seeing decay" and do not live up to the scripture:
Act 2:26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will live in hope,
Act 2:27 because you will not abandon me to the grave,
nor will you let your Holy One see decay.
Act 2:28 You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.’[fn5]

Act 2:29 “Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.
Act 2:30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne.
Act 2:31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ,[fn6] that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay.
Act 2:32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact.
Act 2:33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.


Again, they've taken a scripture, applied it to themselves and run wild with it. Those corpses are in various stages of decay/mummification or have wax masks (ala mdme. Trussauds) to perpetuate an APPEARANCE of no decay...an illusion...a lie.

There is only one body that has never seen decay...that of Christ!

I don't understand how people are falling for this...someone in a position of authority points to corpses in various stages of decay and/or mummification and say, "It's incorruptible!" and people just nod their heads in agreement...?! It's unbelievable.

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As an eye witness i fall for nothing.

Trento said:

2Ki 13:20And Elisha died, and they buried him. And the bands of the Moabites invaded the land at the coming in of the year.

2Ki 13:21And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band [of men]; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.

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Well, it says BONES of Elisha...he had decayed.

Now, if it was the BONES of Elisha that healed the man, then people from all over the world would be flocking to the tomb in order to touch the bones and be healed...much like what happens today when someone claims that some corpse healed them.

Obviously, God healed the man, not Elisha's bones. God hates idolatry.

Trento said:

As an eye witness i fall for nothing.

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Well then, did you look under her robe?