Preservation of the elect

[J_B_]

Again the Godly mindset to answer such questions is to focus on oneself

Actually, it's the opposite. Luther agonized over predestination quite a bit, and the story he told of the thing that finally freed him from that agony was when his confessor, Staupitz, told him to stop focusing on himself and the only predestination he need worry about was the predestination of Christ for our salvation.

 

[rwb]

The predestination answer is best answered when Scripture is allowed to speak for itself.
Reformed theology interjects human reasoning with it's double predestination.

1. Because God predestines the elect for salvation
2. therefore human reason insists that God predestines others not

Scripture only speaks of predestination pertaining only to the believer:

Romans 8:29-30
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

​

Again the Godly mindset to answer such questions is to focus on oneself: "Why me instead of why not them."

Double predestination lacks logic? Since I believe God ordained from eternity, before the foundation of the world, that He would save a people for Himself, speaks of the Lamb slain from before creation. So God knowing humanity would bring death unto every human through sin, predestined to save some of them or all human kind would be lost forever. So the question is why would we say God also predestined those not predestined to life to the fate they freely choose? Double predestination makes no sense, because it was God's plan for man to have no knowledge of the evil that would bring death upon every human? Had man obeyed God, and not heeded to the voice of the serpent, then man could have lived forever.

Genesis 2:17 (KJV) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So, God predestined life, not death to whosoever He desires.

Ro 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Ro 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

[Ann77]

So, God predestined life, not death to whosoever He desires.

Ro 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Ro 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Couldn't Roman's 9 suggest otherwise? What does it mean He made one unto dishonor? Is it talking about the hardening of Israel or are they rhetorical questions "what if..." Romans 9:22?

 

[rwb]

Couldn't Roman's 9 suggest otherwise? What does it mean He made one unto dishonor? Is it talking about the hardening of Israel or are they rhetorical questions "what if..." Romans 9:22?

Did God make them to be dishonorable? Or were they destined by the fall to dishonor? Is not mankind created in the likeness and image of God? As such, pronounced to be "very good". All are made of the same lump of the earth, earthy, and from the fall like the first Adam, or natural man. Did God ordain some men to disobey Him, or did man bring himself to dishonor of his own free will when he chose to heed the voice of the serpent?

God doesn't harden men destined to eternal life. God uses men already destined to death through the fall to accomplish His good pleasure. (Gen 50:20) Pharaoh is the example of God hardening one who is already destined to death to bring about His glory. Neither does God harden Israel. Rather God leaves them in the hardness of their own fallen, disobedient heart, having mercy only upon those ordained to eternal life from before the foundation of the world.

Mankind is not fitted for destruction because God ordained it, but through the fall every human is fitted for destruction. Unless God ordains some men to eternal life through predestination, no man would have eternal life through Christ. It is the fall, through man's own choice that fitted every human to destruction. It was not God making some for destruction.

 

[Ann77]

Did God make them to be dishonorable? Or were they destined by the fall to dishonor? Is not mankind created in the likeness and image of God? As such, pronounced to be "very good". All are made of the same lump of the earth, earthy, and from the fall like the first Adam, or natural man. Did God ordain some men to disobey Him, or did man bring himself to dishonor of his own free will when he chose to heed the voice of the serpent?

God doesn't harden men destined to eternal life. God uses men already destined to death through the fall to accomplish His good pleasure. (Gen 50:20) Pharaoh is the example of God hardening one who is already destined to death to bring about His glory. Neither does God harden Israel. Rather God leaves them in the hardness of their own fallen, disobedient heart, having mercy only upon those ordained to eternal life from before the foundation of the world.

Mankind is not fitted for destruction because God ordained it, but through the fall every human is fitted for destruction. Unless God ordains some men to eternal life through predestination, no man would have eternal life through Christ. It is the fall, through man's own choice that fitted every human to destruction. It was not God making some for destruction.

What about the thought since God is Sovereign, He is in charge with the creation of every living soul, so in that way, He is creating some for hell? I'm struggling with this question, too. I guess this would be a belief for those who reject compatibilism and
permissive will. I know those are probably Reformed terms.

 

[rwb]

What about the thought since God is Sovereign, He is in charge with the creation of every living soul, so in that way, He is creating some for hell? I'm struggling with this question, too. I guess this would be a belief for those who reject compatibilism and
permissive will. I know those are probably Reformed terms.

When God created man, He created them very good. Man in this very good condition possessed total autonomy. Man could choose to obey God, or he could freely choose to heed the voice of the serpent. We know man's free choice, so what happened to man's ability to freely choose to obey God after the fall? Man's eyes of understanding were opened and for the first time man knew both good and evil, and man understood his nakedness before God, and became ashamed.

So God blocked the way back to Him and eternal life man could have had by eating of the tree of life. God "placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." (Gen 3:24)

God knew before creation that human kind with total autonomy would NEVER freely choose to submit to another, not even to the Creator. Mankind, from the beginning was created by God with a desire to be the master of his/her own life. It is inherent within all people to become like God; i.e. a god. To know the goodness and mercy of God alone, man must be allowed to experience sin and its consequences death. For without experiencing evil, man could not understand what is "very good".

The question is did God create mankind for hell, or did mankind freely choose to have knowledge of good and evil by eating of the forbidden tree, of their own free will, thereby choosing for themselves sin and hell?

God knew what mankind with complete autonomy would do before creation. That's why Christ is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. God Himself is the remedy for sin long before sin and death existed. Through Covenant promise, God's creation would not be utterly destroyed by mankind. God provided Himself the sacrifice for sin and death before He created all things.

Through Christ, mankind has a way back to God and eternal life if he turns back to God in submission, repenting of his sins, believing the Gospel by grace through faith that is created in man by the power of the Spirit. And all who are ordained to eternal life; predestined by God will turn to Christ and live forever.

Just because God does not choose to eternally save every human, does that mean He created all who refuse Him for sin and hell?

 

[Ann77]

Just because God does not choose to eternally save every human, does that mean He created all who refuse Him for sin and hell?

That's exactly the argument I'm running into. Since He is their maker, He made them for Hell.

Would the answer be all of Humanity was destinied to hell if God didn't intervene?

 

[rwb]

That's exactly the argument I'm running into. Since He is their maker, He made them for Hell.

Would the answer be all of Humanity was destinied to hell if God didn't intervene?

I believe that is the destiny of every human without God ordaining some for eternal life. Those not ordained to life are left to the fate they freely choose for themselves. But God, showing His great mercy and compassion will have a people for Himself. Not because they are better than others, but because God's love for His creation is too great for Him to allow mankind to utterly destroy what He has created.

 

[Victor in Christ]

The elect are more than overcomers/conquerors and will not suffer from the 2nd death. Amen

Newtownabbey Free Presbyterian Church

 

[twin.spin]

Actually, it's the opposite. Luther agonized over predestination quite a bit, and the story he told of the thing that finally freed him from that agony was when his confessor, Staupitz, told him to stop focusing on himself and the only predestination he need worry about was the predestination of Christ for our salvation.

How about taking my entire reply in context instead part of the ending sentence.

Also your last statement of what Staupitz saying to Luther:

1. For Luther to "only predestination he need worry about was the predestination of Christ for our salvation" ... would require Luther focus on himself concerning the positive
2. Point of the teaching of Predestination is the sole purpose to reassure the believers for the ears of the believers.
3. is somewhat close to what I summarized:

Again the Godly mindset to answer such questions is to focus on oneself: "Why me instead of why not them."​

 

[twin.spin]

What about the thought since God is Sovereign, He is in charge with the creation of every living soul, so in that way, He is creating some for hell? I'm struggling with this question, too. I guess this would be a belief for those who reject compatibilism and
permissive will. I know those are probably Reformed terms.

You're struggling simply because it is not what God says in Scripture.
That thought is the only conclusion of Reformed theologians human reasoning which as Acts 20:30 explains why the Reformed theologians are teaching what they do.

​

 

[Daniel9v9]

Predestination has been a controversy both external and internal to the Lutheran Church. I think the most recent controversy in the Lutheran Church was stirred up by the old Norwegian Synod in North America in the late 1800s or early 1900s. I can't remember exactly how it all went down - I'd have to check my study notes - but this was one of the elements that set the scene for the current Lutheran bodies in the US, and consequently, their mission work throughout the world.

Anyways, the position I hold to, which I believe is the orthodox Lutheran and Biblical position, is that predestination is exclusively for comfort. It's one of several holy mysteries in Scriptures, and we'd be wise not to speculate or reason with it. It's a holy mystery revealed by God for our comfort, apprehended through faith. In fact, that is the sum of what our Confessions state when it talks about Election. The Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord - Book of Concord

I think very simply, it's worth bearing in mind that whenever we see the language of predestination in Scripture, it's always used in a positive sense, to comfort those who are burdened by sin and hardship. So Lutherans reject the Calvinistic/Augustinian double predestination and the Arminian understanding of foreknowledge. I think the Formula of Concord linked above probably explains it best.