Presenting the Gospel

[JM]

roman catholic Salvation is you working with Jesus to get saved. You have a part to play.

Dr. James White calls it the Divine AmWay Program. Everything is set up you just have to "work the plan."

The problem I have is that it confuses sanctification with justification. Don't get me wrong the two ideas are two faces of the same coin but distinct non the less. This program of sacraments replaces what Christ did/does for us and what we do.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[GQ Chris]

"Divine Amway", HAHAHA I love that! so true.

 

[abacabb3]

I asked him about that and I got a similar response as from an EO priest I correspond with. Basically...Salvation is available outside the church, salvation is up to God, God is merciful. Both the EO and RCC see themselves as the best place for a soul to be to continue on the path of salvation. Like a spiritual hospital with the 'best doctors'. But one doesn't have to go to that hospital for salvation.

I hope you are aware that the COuncil of Trent (which in RCC has the force of Scripture), says that all Protestants go to hell. So, they don't know their own doctrine.

 

[gord44]

I hope you are aware that the COuncil of Trent (which in RCC has the force of Scripture), says that all Protestants go to hell. So, they don't know their own doctrine.

Who knows. Not my concern. Just saying what most Catholics I know think.

Eastern Orthodox would probably never say anyone is going to hell for sure, as there is no way a man know another's salvation. Some also have a unique view of heaven and hell that I always found interesting. The 'River of Fire' idea.

 

[abacabb3]

What river of fire?

 

[gord44]

The idea that heaven and hell are the same place, but how you experience them is based on your salvic position. Basically that one can't escape God's fire. This burning fire will be purifying and warm to the believer while the unreptetent will find it terrible and unbearable.

'Paradise and hell are one and the same River of God, a loving fire which embraces and covers all with the same beneficial will, without any difference or discrimination. The same vivifying water is life eternal for the faithful and death eternal for the infidels; for the first it is their element of life, for the second it is the instrument of their eternal suffocation; paradise for the one is hell for the other. Do not consider this strange. The son who loves his father will feel happy in his father’s arms, but if he does not love him, his father’s loving embrace will be a torment to him. This also is why when we love the man who hates us, it is likened to pouring lighted coals and hot embers on his head.'

 

[abacabb3]

Looks like the thread was deleted. I guess they can handle only so many truth bombs and handle so much logic before they just wished it all went away.

Personally, I really took issue with several of them calling all "Protestants" essentially heretics whose beliefs are innovations and are cherry picked, but when it could be shown from their own venerated Church Fathers that their beliefs are inconsistent with ancient practice their heads exploded.

The point I wanted to make clear to them that if God's standards are perfection, (their talk of "getting closer to God" or becoming God/theosis), that no amount of sacraments gets them any closer or better with God. It is a rather simple notion really.

What makes us better with God? Only one thing can, and it is equally available to all: faith in Christ. Satan will devise systems to distract us from Christ's finished work on the cross, but what Jesus did for us leaves us know doubt. He has paid our full penalty. There is no increasing righteousness in the eyes of God that we get from obedience, for in God's judgement we are completely righteous when we are found hidden with Christ in God.

Sacraments cannot save and do not save. If you trust in the sacraments that cannot save, you will find that the One who can save will not know you when its too late.

 

[abacabb3]

The idea that heaven and hell are the same place, but how you experience them is based on your salvic position. Basically that one can't escape God's fire. This burning fire will be purifying and warm to the believer while the unreptetent will find it terrible and unbearable.

'Paradise and hell are one and the same River of God, a loving fire which embraces and covers all with the same beneficial will, without any difference or discrimination. The same vivifying water is life eternal for the faithful and death eternal for the infidels; for the first it is their element of life, for the second it is the instrument of their eternal suffocation; paradise for the one is hell for the other. Do not consider this strange. The son who loves his father will feel happy in his father’s arms, but if he does not love him, his father’s loving embrace will be a torment to him. This also is why when we love the man who hates us, it is likened to pouring lighted coals and hot embers on his head.'

That sounds like a Satanic doctrine, but I'll let God sort all the details when we're dead.

 

[gord44]

Looks like the thread was deleted. I guess they can handle only so many truth bombs and handle so much logic before they just wished it all went away.

Personally, I really took issue with several of them calling all "Protestants" essentially heretics whose beliefs are innovations and are cherry picked, but when it could be shown from their own venerated Church Fathers that their beliefs are inconsistent with ancient practice their heads exploded.

The point I wanted to make clear to them that if God's standards are perfection, (their talk of "getting closer to God" or becoming God/theosis), that no amount of sacraments gets them any closer or better with God. It is a rather simple notion really.

What makes us better with God? Only one thing can, and it is equally available to all: faith in Christ. Satan will devise systems to distract us from Christ's finished work on the cross, but what Jesus did for us leaves us know doubt. He has paid our full penalty. There is no increasing righteousness in the eyes of God that we get from obedience, for in God's judgement we are completely righteous when we are found hidden with Christ in God.

Sacraments cannot save and do not save. If you trust in the sacraments that cannot save, you will find that the One who can save will not know you when its too late.

I remember when I was really into Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Church (which I'm not anymore), I had a similar attitude when it came to Protestsnt inquiries for better or for worse. Mainly because the Bible, the book many Protestants used to try and use against the RCC and EO was assembled by the Catholic Church (referring to the EO and RCC before the schism). This Church was doing its thing well before the Bible even resembled anything close to what it is today. When used against my ideas at the time I would giggle and say 'why don't you get your own holy book' and leave ours alone. I didn't even see the Protestant having a leg to stand on to be honest and I see a similar attitude in some of those posters in that thread. Right or wrong on their part, but I understand.

I will say their response were kinda condescending and if they want a debate sub forum they could have been more accommodating. Either way I am glad I am off the ride of trying to defend either position.

 

[gord44]

That sounds like a Satanic doctrine, but I'll let God sort all the details when we're dead.

Which aspects? Heaven and hell being the same place? I remember RC Sproul somewhere said that it was possible. It doesn't diminish any of the gruesome eternal torture ideas that hell brings. It's very Roman Catholic to think Hell is down below and Heaven is up above, well separated from each other.

 

[abacabb3]

Which aspects? Heaven and hell being the same place? I remember RC Sproul somewhere said that it was possible. It doesn't diminish any of the gruesome eternal torture ideas that hell brings. It's very Roman Catholic to think Hell is down below and Heaven is up above, well separated from each other.

Revelation says clearly that those in the lake of fire are "outside" the New Jerusalem. Any effort to conflate the two seems to me to be done for the sake of philosophy and at the cost of the plain reading of the Scripture.

 

[abacabb3]

This Church was doing its thing well before the Bible even resembled anything close to what it is today. When used against my ideas at the time I would giggle and say 'why don't you get your own holy book' and leave ours alone. I didn't even see the Protestant having a leg to stand on to be honest and I see a similar attitude in some of those posters in that thread.

I am very drawn to Apostolic Tradition, don't get me wrong. However, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, and ROman Catholocism falsely teach that they inherit this tradition. They flat out have added practices unheard of in the Scripture or first few hundred years of the Church, gotten rid of other (milk and honey during baptism, headcoverings, etc.), and teach heresies (such as sacraments meriting salvation.)

I think it all comes down to the Regulative Principle. By this principle the Fathers devised doctrine and weighed traditions. We have found, strangely enough, those traditions which had the "uniform practice of the church" but no Scripture behind them have also went by the wayside.

For this reason, I think the Reformation was essential. We had to Reform what the CHurch was always supposed to be, because what was left in RCC or EO was nowhere close.

 

[gord44]

Fair enough. Not here to argue that friend.

 

[abacabb3]

I just want to see if I am the only one to come to that conclusion.

 

[JM]

I’m not too surprised the thread was deleted. The Gospel thread was removed after it was reported, it seems you can debate Eastern Orthodox beliefs, but you cannot do so in a manner that can be construed as proselytising. I’ll try to respond tomorrow about Icons but I’m not too hopeful. The responses have been eisegetical at best, slanderous most often… The references to angels on the Ark is a good example of misunderstanding the nature of revealed religion under the old Mosaic covenant of works. We can equally claim the Eastern Orthodox are using the Fathers like “proof texts” which is what they say about Prot’s and scripture.

"If custom is to be taken in proof of what is right, then it is certainly competent for me to put forward on my side the custom which obtains here. If they reject this we are clearly not bound to follow them. Therefore, let God-inspired Scripture decide between us, and on whichever side be found doctrines in harmony with the Word of God, in favor of that side will be cast the vote of truth." Basil of Caesarea

Yours in the Lord,

jm

http://appleeye.org/2014/05/11/basil-of-caesarea-a-champion-of-sola-scriptura/

 

[JM]

The ECF's did not believe they were apostles.

Did the Early Church Fathers Think that They Were Inspired Like the Apostles? - Michael J. Kruger

 

[abacabb3]

Their heads were exploding when it was clear that Eastern Orthodoxy doesn't follow ancient baptismal practices. When I am done with some JWs on Sunday I think I am going to write something up on the Regulative Principle and how it applies to that situation. Hopefully on my 20 hour flight next Saturday I can read a lot on baptism, which I am hoping to come up with some sort of formal defense on modern baptist practice.

 

[JM]

Their heads were exploding when it was clear that Eastern Orthodoxy doesn't follow ancient baptismal practices. When I am done with some JWs on Sunday I think I am going to write something up on the Regulative Principle and how it applies to that situation. Hopefully on my 20 hour flight next Saturday I can read a lot on baptism, which I am hoping to come up with some sort of formal defense on modern baptist practice.

Did you see this thread: http://www.christianforums.com/t7861343/

The EO Priest gets owned. Big time. I can't believe it was posted by the Eastern Orthodox on AF Radio.

jm

 

[JM]

Found a minute and posted: http://www.christianforums.com/t7860979-9/

 

[gord44]

What's the jist of the AF broadcast? Curious to know but don't have time to listen right now. Please!