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Perhaps, and perhaps it went in one ear and out the other, as so often happens when people try to tell me things. But I could also see it as them thinking that of course everybody knows the whole process so they don't have to explain it.I'd be willing to bet that, during the initial disciplinary process, they did.
Hope we helped and didn't hinder.Anyway, thanks for the help
You left your PCA church way too quickly. You were clearly excommunicated and in order to be restored you need to show that you are truly repentant and you need to serve some punishment for falling away. Where I would fault the church is that they clearly did not communicate with you what the path forward was. I don't think it would be unreasonable to bar you from the table for 3-6 months while you show the elders the fruits of your faith. That should have been communicated to you though.This has haunted me a long time, and I can't think of any way to set everything back to normal. Bear with me through the story:
I was raised Southern Baptist, and at 17 started learning theology to learn why I was Baptist and not another denomination. I eventually ended up accepting Reformed Theology as Scriptural and joined a small PCA church that seemed really traditionally Presbyterian. I was there for 3 years faithfully following everything they taught, but ended up falling away at 20 due to the New Age movement. I was completely unprepared to be able to defend myself against it's deceptive misinterpretations of Holy Scripture, and left the church and was honest with the elders about why I was leaving, as I didn't want to be secretive or get others under that church to follow my beliefs at the time.
3 years later, I came back to my senses and was truly repentant, and cut out all the evil from my life. I was so happy to return home, and likened it to the Prodigal Son returning home, with the father joyfully accepting his son back. That's not at all what happened: I was under discipline for failure to uphold my vows, and barred from communion. Not a single person at the church wanted to be seen near me, and the elders blamed me for their son falling into New Age ideas (he left it behind quickly, but the bitterness was still there). I didn't cause it, and didn't advocate anyone to accept anything I believed: I kept it to myself and the elders.
After a few weeks there with the most uncomfortable and stilted reception they gave communion, and this is when they told me about be barred from communion: the elder told me, then passed over me. I left the church immediately and balled my eyes out. I knew Jesus had forgiven me, and He longed for me to be forgiven here too. I liken it to the Adulterous Woman 'Let he that is without sin cast the first stone.' I left and never went back, and never could join a Reformed or Presbyterian Church again because they will not accept my membership because of my old church.
I then began to see Protestantism itself as inherently flawed. This was a heart-wrenching time in my life, and I was alone and confused about what to do. I started to study church history, read the saints, and joined a Catholic RCIA class (Roman Catholic Initiation for Adults). They welcomed me lovingly and seemed more Christlike in my eyes than my Presbyterian Church was. I didn't finish the RCIA class because I started to realize Catholicism is no longer what once was: they betrayed their own traditions for postmodernism, and were told to submit to an antichrist in Pope Francis, and I just couldn't do it.
I left for Eastern Orthodoxy, and nearly finished the conversion process, and left after I realized that all the traditions the Orthodox held were not Scriptural, but stunk of paganism. I became a member of no church but Christ's body, but held to my Reformed convictions yet again. I want to go to a faithful church again, but I would never be able to partake of communion again unless I went to a non-Reformed church, and I refuse to believe that what that former church did was charitible, loving, or Christlike, I love, cherish, and make Christ the center and end of my life, finding forgiveness in Him, but man-made traditions make it near impossible to ever have proper fellowship again with like-minded brethren, that I may not forsake the assembling of ourselves' together.
I'm torn and broken: Christ has healed me, but men refuse to accept Christ's judgement on this matter. Please help me to be able to find the proper way to overcome this sad reality I now live in
This has haunted me a long time, and I can't think of any way to set everything back to normal. Bear with me through the story:
I was raised Southern Baptist, and at 17 started learning theology to learn why I was Baptist and not another denomination. I eventually ended up accepting Reformed Theology as Scriptural and joined a small PCA church that seemed really traditionally Presbyterian. I was there for 3 years faithfully following everything they taught, but ended up falling away at 20 due to the New Age movement. I was completely unprepared to be able to defend myself against it's deceptive misinterpretations of Holy Scripture, and left the church and was honest with the elders about why I was leaving, as I didn't want to be secretive or get others under that church to follow my beliefs at the time.
3 years later, I came back to my senses and was truly repentant, and cut out all the evil from my life. I was so happy to return home, and likened it to the Prodigal Son returning home, with the father joyfully accepting his son back. That's not at all what happened: I was under discipline for failure to uphold my vows, and barred from communion. Not a single person at the church wanted to be seen near me, and the elders blamed me for their son falling into New Age ideas (he left it behind quickly, but the bitterness was still there). I didn't cause it, and didn't advocate anyone to accept anything I believed: I kept it to myself and the elders.
After a few weeks there with the most uncomfortable and stilted reception they gave communion, and this is when they told me about be barred from communion: the elder told me, then passed over me. I left the church immediately and balled my eyes out. I knew Jesus had forgiven me, and He longed for me to be forgiven here too. I liken it to the Adulterous Woman 'Let he that is without sin cast the first stone.' I left and never went back, and never could join a Reformed or Presbyterian Church again because they will not accept my membership because of my old church.
I then began to see Protestantism itself as inherently flawed. This was a heart-wrenching time in my life, and I was alone and confused about what to do. I started to study church history, read the saints, and joined a Catholic RCIA class (Roman Catholic Initiation for Adults). They welcomed me lovingly and seemed more Christlike in my eyes than my Presbyterian Church was. I didn't finish the RCIA class because I started to realize Catholicism is no longer what once was: they betrayed their own traditions for postmodernism, and were told to submit to an antichrist in Pope Francis, and I just couldn't do it.
I left for Eastern Orthodoxy, and nearly finished the conversion process, and left after I realized that all the traditions the Orthodox held were not Scriptural, but stunk of paganism. I became a member of no church but Christ's body, but held to my Reformed convictions yet again. I want to go to a faithful church again, but I would never be able to partake of communion again unless I went to a non-Reformed church, and I refuse to believe that what that former church did was charitible, loving, or Christlike, I love, cherish, and make Christ the center and end of my life, finding forgiveness in Him, but man-made traditions make it near impossible to ever have proper fellowship again with like-minded brethren, that I may not forsake the assembling of ourselves' together.
I'm torn and broken: Christ has healed me, but men refuse to accept Christ's judgement on this matter. Please help me to be able to find the proper way to overcome this sad reality I now live in
I don't think everyone gets the idea of a church which tries to do discipleship using some discipline. We expect gushy warm fuzzy stuff all the time. We expect that God loving us all the time means we can do what we want all the time. And that anything goes, at least as far as we are concerned.You left your PCA church way too quickly. You were clearly excommunicated and in order to be restored you need to show that you are truly repentant and you need to serve some punishment for falling away. Where I would fault the church is that they clearly did not communicate with you what the path forward was. I don't think it would be unreasonable to bar you from the table for 3-6 months while you show the elders the fruits of your faith. That should have been communicated to you though.
If they refused to tell you or were entirely unreasonable then I think you should have appealed to presbytery. In Presbyterian churches you always have the right to appeal to a higher body. The local church isn't a dictatorship of elder oligarchs or the pastor.
I doubt there’s anything to appeal. This person left a PCA church. I assume they removed him from the rolls, or at least made him inactive. He implied that when leaving he told the Session he was leaving and why. That might have caused them to remove or deactivate him immediately. At least based on the OP that would be reasonable. He doesn’t indicate that he had joined again or reactivated his membership when he came back after 3 years. That would require meeting with the Session, if it’s anything like the PCUSA. The OP makes it sound like that might have started, but not finished. To take communion in the PCA you must be a member in good standing of an acceptable church. As far as I can tell from the OP he was not and still is not.If they refused to tell you or were entirely unreasonable then I think you should have appealed to presbytery. In Presbyterian churches you always have the right to appeal to a higher body. The local church isn't a dictatorship of elder oligarchs or the pastor.
This person left a PCA church. I assume they removed him from the rolls
if he now wants to be part of a Reformed Church, he will have to meet with the elders, even in the PCUSA. With this history, they will want to make sure he is back for real.
This has haunted me a long time, and I can't think of any way to set everything back to normal. Bear with me through the story:
I was raised Southern Baptist, and at 17 started learning theology to learn why I was Baptist and not another denomination. I eventually ended up accepting Reformed Theology as Scriptural and joined a small PCA church that seemed really traditionally Presbyterian. I was there for 3 years faithfully following everything they taught, but ended up falling away at 20 due to the New Age movement. I was completely unprepared to be able to defend myself against it's deceptive misinterpretations of Holy Scripture, and left the church and was honest with the elders about why I was leaving, as I didn't want to be secretive or get others under that church to follow my beliefs at the time.
3 years later, I came back to my senses and was truly repentant, and cut out all the evil from my life. I was so happy to return home, and likened it to the Prodigal Son returning home, with the father joyfully accepting his son back. That's not at all what happened: I was under discipline for failure to uphold my vows, and barred from communion. Not a single person at the church wanted to be seen near me, and the elders blamed me for their son falling into New Age ideas (he left it behind quickly, but the bitterness was still there). I didn't cause it, and didn't advocate anyone to accept anything I believed: I kept it to myself and the elders.
After a few weeks there with the most uncomfortable and stilted reception they gave communion, and this is when they told me about be barred from communion: the elder told me, then passed over me. I left the church immediately and balled my eyes out. I knew Jesus had forgiven me, and He longed for me to be forgiven here too. I liken it to the Adulterous Woman 'Let he that is without sin cast the first stone.' I left and never went back, and never could join a Reformed or Presbyterian Church again because they will not accept my membership because of my old church.
I then began to see Protestantism itself as inherently flawed. This was a heart-wrenching time in my life, and I was alone and confused about what to do. I started to study church history, read the saints, and joined a Catholic RCIA class (Roman Catholic Initiation for Adults). They welcomed me lovingly and seemed more Christlike in my eyes than my Presbyterian Church was. I didn't finish the RCIA class because I started to realize Catholicism is no longer what once was: they betrayed their own traditions for postmodernism, and were told to submit to an antichrist in Pope Francis, and I just couldn't do it.
I left for Eastern Orthodoxy, and nearly finished the conversion process, and left after I realized that all the traditions the Orthodox held were not Scriptural, but stunk of paganism. I became a member of no church but Christ's body, but held to my Reformed convictions yet again. I want to go to a faithful church again, but I would never be able to partake of communion again unless I went to a non-Reformed church, and I refuse to believe that what that former church did was charitible, loving, or Christlike, I love, cherish, and make Christ the center and end of my life, finding forgiveness in Him, but man-made traditions make it near impossible to ever have proper fellowship again with like-minded brethren, that I may not forsake the assembling of ourselves' together.
I'm torn and broken: Christ has healed me, but men refuse to accept Christ's judgement on this matter. Please help me to be able to find the proper way to overcome this sad reality I now live in
I'm far to the right of the PCA, which is a denomination that really doesn't discipline much. That said, there are consequences to our sin which is why I used the term punishment. By denying a backslidden believer the means of grace (communion) for a short period he is being taught to consequences of his sin. Like in society, once the punishment is served the matter should forever be put to rest.I don't think everyone gets the idea of a church which tries to do discipleship using some discipline. We expect gushy warm fuzzy stuff all the time. We expect that God loving us all the time means we can do what we want all the time. And that anything goes, at least as far as we are concerned.
The Catholic Church has some discipline. But it's rare. The PCA has a lot of discipline. Somewhere between the two is the right amount. Churches should, on occasion, excommunicate. It's Biblical. And any church that takes discipleship seriously will do it at least from time to time.
But such things do not sit well with some people. And if you don't know what to expect it will sit even less well.
You mentioned 'punishment', which I thought was odd. The whole process should be medicinal, even if the medicine tastes bad. And Reformed theology has no place for penances anyway, having jettisoned that. Penances would make sense if this was a Catholic situation, but 'punishment' sounds like, well, punishment.
I suppose they could have simply removed him from the membership rolls. I have historically been in more conservative churches which don't simply remove people who leave the church entirely. They start church discipline against them and ultimately excommunicate. On second thought, I don't see the PCA doing that. If they have semi-closed communion then the OP had no business expecting communion when he isn't a member of a church.I doubt there’s anything to appeal. This person left a PCA church. I assume they removed him from the rolls, or at least made him inactive. He implied that when leaving he told the Session he was leaving and why. That might have caused them to remove or deactivate him immediately. At least based on the OP that would be reasonable. He doesn’t indicate that he had joined again or reactivated his membership when he came back after 3 years. That would require meeting with the Session, if it’s anything like the PCUSA. The OP makes it sound like that might have started, but not finished. To take communion in the PCA you must be a member in good standing of an acceptable church. As far as I can tell from the OP he was not and still is not.
if I’m right that he was removed from the rolls, I guess that could be appealed, but being away for three years is probably enough, no to mention telling the elders he was leaving. Furthermore, since then he has attended Catholic and Orthodox churches, which complicates any appeal.
it doesn’t sound like he’s excommunicated so much as not a member. After that history any conservative reformed churcH would want to be sure he’s back for real before accepting him as a member.
if my guesses are right, the church failed to be clear about what was going on, but might not have acted unreasonably.
if he now wants to be part of a Reformed Church, he will have to meet with the elders, even in the PCUSA. With this history, they will want to make sure he is back for real. The PCUSA would probably take him at his word, but would require meeting with the pastor and a new member class. The big difference is that we have open communion, so he could participate before that process is finished.
Far to the right of the PCUSA is easy. Far to the right of the PCA seems harder.I'm far to the right of the PCA, which is a denomination that really doesn't discipline much.
Most Protestants say that ALL consequences of sin are done away with by the sacrificial death of Jesus. 'He paid it all', is what I typically hear. The term punishment goes back to Tertullian, the first Latin writer in the Church ca 200 AD. His term was 'poena', the stuff that was left over when the guilt of sin was paid by the sacrificial death of Jesus. It is usually translated as 'punishment' but is more the requirement to pay a debt as Tertullian and Christians following his initial use of the term applied it. That something still needed to be made right. Something one could do penances for to rectify things. Generally this whole thought is anathema to Protestants.That said, there are consequences to our sin which is why I used the term punishment.
I agree that sin has consequences, but I don't get the 'teach him a lesson' approach. It should be 'restorative justice'. What you described sounds like it might be considered punitive.By denying a backslidden believer the means of grace (communion) for a short period he is being taught to consequences of his sin.
And yet quite different in that the guilt of sin is removed by Jesus. Apples and oranges.Like in society, once the punishment is served the matter should forever be put to rest.
Well of course you are opposed to anything Catholic. What's new?I'm not speaking of penance, no amount of hail mary's is going to do anything for anyone.
One would hope. In the case of the OP it looks like a fail.The whole point of church discipline is to win a believer back into the fold.
It makes no sense to discipline a non member.I suppose they could have simply removed him from the membership rolls. I have historically been in more conservative churches which don't simply remove people who leave the church entirely. They start church discipline against them and ultimately excommunicate. On second thought, I don't see the PCA doing that. If they have semi-closed communion then the OP had no business expecting communion when he isn't a member of a church.
All of that said, the situation could have been handled better by the elders. It should have been explained to him why he wasn't to receive communion beforehand.
Hey man I feel your struggle. I grew up in the pca and am reformed. Honestly brother if they are still doing this after you repented they are in sin. Reformed people are so fing proud it makes me sick, really reformed doctrine should lead you to deep humility but instead it leads most of them to pride. I see most of them as fake Christian's anyways they put on a good face on Sunday but that's about it and when someone confesses their sins they ostracized them. It's sick. Don't go there anymore. Just find a nice biblical church that truly loves u man and you'd be surprised at how much more reformed they are than the reformed people. The Bible isn't about how smart u r it's about God's love and His glory . I haven't had good experiences with any reformed denomination honestly but I went to a baptist church and the minister was boosting about his doctorate in whatever and they wanted me to get rebaptized. Anyways pm me I'd you want to talk more or have a phone call.This has haunted me a long time, and I can't think of any way to set everything back to normal. Bear with me through the story:
I was raised Southern Baptist, and at 17 started learning theology to learn why I was Baptist and not another denomination. I eventually ended up accepting Reformed Theology as Scriptural and joined a small PCA church that seemed really traditionally Presbyterian. I was there for 3 years faithfully following everything they taught, but ended up falling away at 20 due to the New Age movement. I was completely unprepared to be able to defend myself against it's deceptive misinterpretations of Holy Scripture, and left the church and was honest with the elders about why I was leaving, as I didn't want to be secretive or get others under that church to follow my beliefs at the time.
3 years later, I came back to my senses and was truly repentant, and cut out all the evil from my life. I was so happy to return home, and likened it to the Prodigal Son returning home, with the father joyfully accepting his son back. That's not at all what happened: I was under discipline for failure to uphold my vows, and barred from communion. Not a single person at the church wanted to be seen near me, and the elders blamed me for their son falling into New Age ideas (he left it behind quickly, but the bitterness was still there). I didn't cause it, and didn't advocate anyone to accept anything I believed: I kept it to myself and the elders.
After a few weeks there with the most uncomfortable and stilted reception they gave communion, and this is when they told me about be barred from communion: the elder told me, then passed over me. I left the church immediately and balled my eyes out. I knew Jesus had forgiven me, and He longed for me to be forgiven here too. I liken it to the Adulterous Woman 'Let he that is without sin cast the first stone.' I left and never went back, and never could join a Reformed or Presbyterian Church again because they will not accept my membership because of my old church.
I then began to see Protestantism itself as inherently flawed. This was a heart-wrenching time in my life, and I was alone and confused about what to do. I started to study church history, read the saints, and joined a Catholic RCIA class (Roman Catholic Initiation for Adults). They welcomed me lovingly and seemed more Christlike in my eyes than my Presbyterian Church was. I didn't finish the RCIA class because I started to realize Catholicism is no longer what once was: they betrayed their own traditions for postmodernism, and were told to submit to an antichrist in Pope Francis, and I just couldn't do it.
I left for Eastern Orthodoxy, and nearly finished the conversion process, and left after I realized that all the traditions the Orthodox held were not Scriptural, but stunk of paganism. I became a member of no church but Christ's body, but held to my Reformed convictions yet again. I want to go to a faithful church again, but I would never be able to partake of communion again unless I went to a non-Reformed church, and I refuse to believe that what that former church did was charitible, loving, or Christlike, I love, cherish, and make Christ the center and end of my life, finding forgiveness in Him, but man-made traditions make it near impossible to ever have proper fellowship again with like-minded brethren, that I may not forsake the assembling of ourselves' together.
I'm torn and broken: Christ has healed me, but men refuse to accept Christ's judgement on this matter. Please help me to be able to find the proper way to overcome this sad reality I now live in
If you speak with an orthodox priest regarding theosis as I regularly do (my close friend is a priest) you will understand it is a process by which a person’s works, coupled with their membership in an orthodox parish (“the one true church”) grant that person access to Christ’s blood and saving sacrifice. There is no such thing as being “saved” from your sins in orthodoxy. It’s a process and you access salvation through a process meted out by the church establishment.I am not Orthodox for many reasons, but theosis, while it sounds really strange, isn't one of those reasons. I remember when I first heard of it I thought it was pretty Mormon. But when I understood it in the context of adoption it began to make sense. The history of thinking on theosis goes back to Fathers who were instrumental in formulating the Trinity. For example, Athanasius. It's not some recent Orthodox invention. It's actually Biblical if you accept 2Peter 1:3-4. We aren't God. We will never become God. But we are adopted into the family in some limited but real way.
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