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Premortal Existance (LDS)

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RevelationTestament

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Let's Christinize it:
Matthew 19:28
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matthew 12:32
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
 
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EarlyChristianresearcher

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drstevej said:
Pure Smithism. NO THANKS
Click to expand...


Veils are part of historic Christianity, so, again Mormons have to blame, Jewish & Christianity for such things, to have to be restored by modern prophets. So it's not pure smithism, it's Jewish-Christianism. Mormons have to credit them for helping us understand what was restored. Thanks you early to later Christians! Love those lectures on the mysteries.

In historic Christian mysteries, curtains-veils, separate different places as a type of passing from one realm of existence into another. What is beyond the curtain, like in later mystery-moral plays, is often unknown to those watching the play, or mysteries, until the curtains are drawn up to reveal the next scene, act, or realm of existence to be passed through. Thus, like a veil of forgetfulness, or the unknown, a mystery, once the curtains are drawn to reveal things, the realm is also passed through, where new life experiences & knowledge is learned, where former knowledge & life experiences are refreshed, brought back into remembrance. (See: The Forgotten Books of Eden, for example: The pre-existing Christ & other angels descend from heaven to instruct Adam & Eve about their former glorious nature that they fell from, during the fall. Christ exposes Satan's counterfeit mysteries & teaches the true ones, he promises to restore them to their former state of glory when he harrows them from the underworld of death, & brings them back to God & paradise. The descent into hell, hades, limbo, purgatory, where, like in Eden, they are often depicted as naked, to then be clothed in ascension robes when they are rescued out of the underworld of death, are resurrected by hand & wrist grasping). In other cases, in earlier Christianity, veils divided the baptismal fonts, baptism being a type of passing from death to a resurrected life, as Paul said, buried with Christ in death, raised up with Christ in the resurrection, (Rom 6:3-11; Col. 2:12). "Behind drawn curtains those who were sufficiently prepared by catechesis were baptized in the Easter Night. This time was chosen because the competentes were seen as entering a new life in the night o f the resurrection o f Jesus." M. E. Nelson, Catechesis and Baptism in the early Christian Church, 452. "...Thus in the night o f the resurrection the baptism took place wearing no jewels, with loosened hair, without any clothes (thus following the custom o f the Jewish proselyte baptism - Christiansen, 1981:4), as they had come into the worid (Hip. Trad. Ap. 21.3), behind drawn curtains they descended the steps into the baptismal pool..." (Nelson, 453).



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4th c. Cyril of Jerusalem said a veil was there because how the early Christian men & women would take off their old clothing, "filthy rags," go down into the font, like going down into the underworld of death, were baptized naked, then ascended up out of the font, a type of resurrection, to be anointed & clothed in a new garment or baptismal robe. (Nelson, 454, etc.) Another type of resurrection, being that the spirit is clothed in a resurrected glorified, purified, washed from sins, body. The veil separated the men from the women to give them some privacy, & of course, so there wouldn't be natural distractions in seeing each other naked. (Looking for exact source, but know its in Cyril of Jerusalem notes). It goes back to the passages in the Old Testament of realm travel, naked came I into this world, naked will I return. This is also why a lot of art works of the harrowing of hell, Christ's descent into hades, limbo, purgatory, etc., naked souls are depicted ascending by hand & wrist grasping, for they will be clothed in ascension robes, blankets or garments, often white, as they ascend into paradise. (Scroll down to article, see art works & sources in: Passover, Easter & Garment Types of Deification in the Resurrection (Easter Sunday, 4-8-2012). Baptism was the ritualistic type of all this in the early Christian mysteries. Early Christian robes also had different types of symbols on them, as did curtains, because the garments were a type of veils, & the veils were a type of ascension robes. When passing through curtains, the early Christians were ascending to higher realms from lower ones on their journey towards entering into Paradise or Heaven. Veils were also depicted as clouds, out of which just the hand of God extends to bless, or clasp the hand or wrist of the ascending Christ, prophets, saints, or to pass down knowledge to those who ascend to the veil-cloud. Thus, Moses if often being handed down knowledge which he didn't know before, as the hand of God hands down the law. The veil-cloud is also the place of the sode experience, where "secrets" are revealed to those who learn things that they'd forgotten or that the Lord reminds & teaches the prophets about, (Amos 3:7). Knowledge that helps the ascending soul to know the whole point of the whole journey of the soul from the forgotten pre-existence realm, to mortal life, when the naked soul was clothed in a body (like in the baptismal mysteries); the purpose of death; & the promise of the resurrection, when the spirit will be clothed again in a glorious perfected body. At the veil-cloud, in art works, the hand of God, or in some cases the wounded hand of Christ, then pulls the ascender, by hand & wrist grips into paradise, or heaven, (scroll down to see sources). The doors or gates are also types of veils, such as the gates or doors to paradise, where St. Peter is often depicted greeting souls by hand & wrist grasping, to welcome them & allow them to enter. They enter & are thus safe from the demons shooting arrows at the ascenders, like in the cases with ascenders up the ladders to heaven. So the ascension robes are protective robes too, representing the veil-cloud, which once is passed through, has brought the ascender into the protective realms away from the demonic forces, (Eph. 6:10-19; Psa. 90:7-8, 17; 91:1-4). Ascension robes, like baptismal robes, represented also that the early Christian had taken off sins, like taking off old clothing, filthy rags, & putting on new clothing, like during Easter sundays, Whitesunday, or Whitsuntide, which kept alive these earlier baptismal-resurrection traditions & rituals. They had put on Christ, or righteousness, having become spotless, pure & white, before God's judgment, through Christ's atonement. (Eph. 5:26-27; Rev. 19:8, 14, Isa. 1:18). The ascender enters God's presence, & returns to their former state of glory & is added upon in remembering & finding out who he or she were before he or she were born into a mortal body, & thus they progress towards further in the deification ascension, like steps up the ladders towards "Christian moral perfection." This is also what the white robes-veils also represent, they enter in, & join the society of the gods & goddesses that endured to the end, to be coronated with the crown of glory & deification, (2 Tim. 4:7-8). This is also why we see martyrs' rewards as robes, crowns, hand symbols, & the angels pulling the martyrs up into heaven, for their rewards for dying for the cause of Christ is perfection, deification, glorification & godhood.

Bibliography:

Prof. Stephen D. Ricks, Who Shall Ascend Into the Hill of the Lord?

Jeffrey M. Bradshaw, Temple Themes In the Book of Moses.

Abram Kanof, Jewish Ceremonial Art And Religious Observance.

Alice K. Turner, 1993, The History of Hell.

Angelo S. Rappoport, Ancient Israel Myths and Legends.

Anna D. Kartsonis, Anastasis, The Making of An Image.

Clifford Davidson, The Iconography of Heaven, Early Drama, Art, and Music.

Colleen McDannell & Bernhard Lang, Heaven: A History.

Craig Harbison, The Last Judgment in Sixteenth Century Northern Europe.

Darell Thorpe, The Mystery Behind the Mysteries,

Erwin R. Goodenough, Jewish Symbols in the Greco-Roman Period.

Francis Bond, Fonts and Font Covers.

Frederick S. Paxton, Christianizing Death, The Creation of a Ritual Process in Early Medieval Europe
Dr. Huge Nibley, Mormonism and Early Christianity.

John Rupert Martin, The Illustration Of The Heavenly Ladder of John Climacus.

Joshua Moses Bennett, The Writings of the Rabbis & Other Important Discoveries. (Salt Lake City, Utah: Morning Star, 1990).

Marion P. Ireland, Textile Art in the Church.

Martha Himmelfarb, Tours Of Hell, An Apocalyptic Form in Jewish and Christian Literature.

Pater Cramer, Baptism and change in the early Middle Ages, c. 200-c. 1150.

Robert Hughes, Heaven and Hell in Western Art.

Vincent Cronin, Mary Portrayed.

Walter Lowrie, Art In The Early Church.

William G.T. Shedd, D.D., A History of Christian Doctrine.
Carol Zaleski, Otherworld Journeys.

Chandler Rathfon Post, A History of Spanish Painting.

Henry Ansgar Kelly, The Devil at baptism: Ritual, Theology, & Drama.
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drstevej

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."
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Norah63 said:
Knowing where we come from helps the path here easier to travel.
Click to expand...

I came from my mother's womb (Psalm 139:13).

For You created my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother’s womb.
​
 
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TheBarrd

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everyone who has ever lived on this earth, including Jesus Christ, previously lived on a prior "earth" or world
Click to expand...
-RevelationTestament

So, in addition to all the other unscriptural beliefs introduced by Joseph Smith, now we are adding reincarnation.
I don't remember seeing anything like this in the Bible.
I only read the BoM once...so maybe I missed it...is this idea in there?
 
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Theway

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You quoted RT beliefs, not Joseph Smith's.
The idea of reincarnation is not an LDS belief.... However that part you just made-up anyway.

It is a progression, not a repeat... except for those who reject God, for them their progression has ended.
For a third it ended in the spiritual realm because they choose to follow Satan; therefore they could not receive a body. For most who have lived on this earth, their progression will end at the judgement and resurrection.

Everything is eternal... It's just a matter of what form you are in at the time, and where you are currently residing.

Before we lived here, we were spirits; hence, we lived in a spiritual realm with spiritual bodies. Before that, we were "intelligences" (whatever that means)
After this life we will have glorified bodies, however it is not clear where exactly that will be, except to say we will be in the presence of The Father somewhere.
If it is a world/planet it will be nothing like the one we currently live in.
 
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TheBarrd

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RevelationTestament said:
Same veil, yep, different earth.
When Jesus was crucified the veil in the temple was rent because He revealed the Father to man for all to see, but it seems not many did.
Click to expand...

RT, do you actually think that we all lived different lives on other worlds?
Reincarnation?
 
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Rescued One

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Where we were born or where we were raised?
 
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TheBarrd

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Isn't RT a Mormon? Why would I not take his word that he is telling me Mormon beliefs? I have no reason to think he'd lie to me, or to anyone else here...

The only way I have of knowing what LDS believe is by what members tell me. Here are two members who seem to believe two different things...one is sure that we have all lived other lives on other worlds, the other is a little more complicated, but evidently doesn't agree.
Are there different sects within the LDS church that believe these different things, and if so, how can I tell who is who?
I've tried to track down what Joseph Smith himself might have taught on some of these things, but unless I'm willing to spend the next 10 years of my life studying all the various different sources, which I am not, that is nearly impossible.
Between members like TfT, RT, you, Ran, and a couple of others, not to mention the Mormons who have been here at the house, I am pretty much convinced that this is a false religion.
 
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Theway

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Oh please.... It was evident you had made up your mind about the LDS Church from day one on here. I've been here on these forums for 15 years and you are not fooling anybody. Plus I believe RT already said his beliefs were not orthodox.
LOL... But then we were to keep out every modern Christian here whose beliefs and doctrines differed, then there wouldn't be any modern Christian left to tell us Mormons what to believe...
The problem is that everything you found so far which you say makes you ill about our church, has turned out to be things the Mormons either don't believe, or is a majority Christian belief as well.

You want to hate the Church you just can't find a good reason...
As I said before... You are simply another Critic in search of a criticism. And just like every Critic here, whenever you can't find that criticism, you'll end your post with a "Joseph was a bad man!" rant.
You say you don't want to spend 10 years on here on the subject of the Mormons, if that is so, then you'd better leave now before you're addicted to the criticizing of others and end up only becoming bitter at every one and everything... Seen it happen a hundred times before already.
I myself am addicted for a different reason... I'm here for the entertainment value.
 
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TheBarrd

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From the time that I was a very little girl, one of the best parts of Christmas was the music. Every year, my Mom would play "Handel's Messiah" on her stereo. The album cover featured a great looking choir, and proclaimed it as "The Mormon Tabernacle Choir".
For most of my life, that is all I knew about Mormons.
My family was Episcopalian/Methodist, so I had never had any exposure to LDS at all, except for that wonderful music that I loved so much.

Fast forward several decades. I am now a grandmother, and my kids are meeting some people with different ideas.
Now, that's not really a problem. In fact, I learned a lot from some of those people. After awhile, I realized that I did not fit into any denomination I'd ever heard of. Eventually, I joined a Baptist congregation, basically because of the love I felt from the people in that particular church. I do realize that not all Baptist congregations display that kind of love...however this one does.

Then, one day, I met a couple of Mormons. Of course, I said, I would be willing to talk with you. We agreed on a day and time. I baked cookies and made coffee...I didn't know they couldn't drink coffee. Fortunately I had some milk in the fridge. And we sat down. The first session was actually kind of pleasant. And the boys seemed very nice. A couple of weeks went by this way. I met a few more Mormons, including a beautiful young girl who was upset about her pending marriage. I couldn't understand why she was marrying someone she didn't want to marry...
I read the BoM, and didn't get any burning in my bosom, even though I did pray about it. It sounded hokey to me even then.
And then I got to talking to a guy friend from church about my Mormon missionaries. He told me that LDS believe that God was once a man who was born on another world.
I did not believe it. I thought it was a sick rumor. After all, all of my life I'd listened to the beautiful music..."The Messiah"...every Christmas.
So I asked my missionaries. They hemmed and hawed around, avoiding the question. Then they told me that my Bible was corrupt. And I disagreed with them. The conversation grew heated. Another week came and went, and I got to talking a bit more with the depressed bride to be and some of her friends.
The crisis came when the potential bride decided that she would leave church and family rather than marry the stiff she was engaged to. Of course, I was blamed...not altogether unfairly, of course...and most of the Mormons I'd met were outraged...well, except for a couple of the "no longer a bride" young lady now sleeping on my couch.
Hey, I figured the girl had the right to marry whoever she wanted. This is America, after all....

A couple more years go by...and I join CF...and you know the rest.
I honestly expected you guys to tell me that the nonsense about God having been a man from another planet was nothing more than a vicious rumor.
No Christian believes such utter hogwash as that....

Imagine my shock when I found out that the vicious rumor was actually true. And worse! LDS actually think this man-god from another planet will one day make some of them man-gods too.

I still say, however, that no Christian believes such a thing. It is blasphemy.

Anyway, that's my story...
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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Sounds good to me.
 
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skylark1

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Phoebe Ann said:
I can't speak for others, but I'm waiting.
Click to expand...

Phoebe, thanks for waiting.

And Ran, thanks for indirectly responding to this.

I'm sorry I haven't been able to get back to this until now. Although I was going to start a new thread, I think that it is close enough to this topic to just discuss here. Besides, people have already commented here.

Ran, what you posted speaks of what a physical body allows us to do that we could not do if we only existed as spirits. Do you think that those things allow someone to advance? (I am using the word advance because it was used in the quote I posted in the OP. It began..."We lived in this premortal life with him for an infinite period of time. We were on probation; we were being schooled and tested and examined; we were given the laws and the circumstances so that we could progress and advance.) Or is the purpose of having a body what Phoebe suggested that LDS teach it is necessary so that one can have a "continuation of seed" after they are in the Celestial Kingdom? Or both?
 
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