Premortal Existance (LDS)

TasteForTruth · Apr 16, 2015

Brambleberry said:
Not saying would never go back.just not in this neck of the woods. And I now have beliefs that I would stick withI still hold to some LDS beliefs, but I believe in Grace not works, now and I do not believe in some of the laws of Moses which were put to restthose I would keepI guess I would turn a Bishops hair grey!

Well, grace and the Restored Gospel are not mutually exclusive. That's a discussion we seem to have here on an ongoing basis.

RevelationTestament · Apr 16, 2015

skylark1 said:
That better explains your beliefs. You warned me in your other posts that some of this differs from mainstream LDS theology, so I am keeping that in mind. So, if I am understanding you, we are born again and again on different worlds, and in the next world Jesus will be our Father. What will Heavenly Father ( I am trying to use LDS terms to keep this straight) play at the time?

Well, I try to use Biblical terms. As far as I know the Father remains the Father, but to be truthful, I don't know. My guess is there is a line of those who are the Father. LDS have a scripture which says the Father has created thousands of worlds, and I don't know how to reconcile that with my present understanding unless not all of them have been inhabited. I see only the creation of a new world. But part of me says there could be two new worlds. It is just not something evident from the scriptures which all speak of only one new earth or one regeneration. So despite any personal feeling or suspicion I may have, I have to stick with scripture.

What do you think happens to us as we progress? My understanding is that traditional LDS theology teaches that when a husband and wife are exalted that they will become gods and among other things receive power to do as God does, including the power to bear children after the resurrection. It sounds like your beliefs differ on this?

Well, I would say that is a "basic understanding." As we progress we become like the Son. So I don't see millions of new worlds created immediately after this one. Where are the Saviors for them? I know Christ does not return to corruption. His work of the Father on the cross is finished forevermore. The Father does not come into the world. His servants do His work in the world.

What do you mean by being born of the Father in the gospel? I don't remember anyone using that phrase before.

I mean just as we are reborn in Christ and He becomes our Father, we were once born in the Father before the beginning. We at some point followed the Father's plan.

Thanks for your kind words. I appreciate you posting what you believe, even if some of it differs from traditional LDS theology. Sometimes people take that opposite approach and will try to only say what is official teachings and not talk about any areas where views may differ.

You are welcome. There are not only scriptures from the Bible, but a few corroborating scriptures in the Book of Mormon and some in the Doctrine and Covenants which speak to this subject. D & C clearly says that some will worship the beast in the next world.
Doctrine and Covenants 88:85
85 That their souls may escape the wrath of God, the desolation of abomination which awaits the wicked, both in this world and in the world to come.
The difference is in the world to come Jesus will not be our Savior, but our Father. He will no longer be the Son. So I cannot follow the doctrine of the trinity. Nor can I follow the doctrine of Bruce McKonkie.

skylark1 · Apr 16, 2015

TasteForTruth said:
Well, grace and the Restored Gospel are not mutually exclusive. That's a discussion we seem to have here on an ongoing basis.

It has been discussed in a lot of other threads. I hope that it isn't discussed in this one.

EarlyChristianresearcher · Apr 16, 2015

yogosans14 said:
It's not biblical, the early church never taught such a false doctrine.

The Pre-existence has now been traced through the centuries back to the early Christian beliefs. It was rejected in later centuries by many & became legendized in other areas of historic Christianity. So, though you might think it's "not biblical," & that "the early church never taught such a false doctrine," is might be because you're not familiar with earlier bibles & earlier Christians who mention the doctrine, & then how it was later rejected by others. To reject it, it first have to have been taught. But perhaps you might go so far as to say, like some anti-Mormon "Christians," have, (not so say you're anti), that the doctrine pre-existence is "Satanic!" Which if so, that's ironic, because once one starts to trace the concept of where Satan came from, one runs into many aspects of the Pre-existence story. How that Satan is a fallen angel, the war in heaven, etc. Those are pre-existence themes & they're biblical. It was also a believe that is found in rabbinical Jewish writings, that was legendized, but inherited by the early Christians too. Mormons certainly don't hold the monopoly on the pre-existence doctrine that got restored, for fragments of the beliefs are found all over the world too. But that's another area of study. To say it's not biblical we'd have to ask, which bible? Modern ones? Or can we explore earlier ones in use by earlier Christians? Even modern ones still have passages, but lets see what earlier bibles, or "scriptures," say too. This is not to try to convince anyone that they have to believe in it, but to show why I believe it's biblical & in scriptures.

In an earlier bible is a close up of the pre-Adam, council in heaven, fall of the angels, as seen by the pre-mortal Christ. (See: Bible of Robert de Bello- England S-E-Canterbury 1240-53 initial scenes of Genesis).

Many of the early Christians believed that Christ pre-existed before his birth to Mary, as the pre-existing first born spirit Son of God. Thus, he had also been "present" with the human family in different periods of time, called dispensations. A 2nd century early Christian writing, that was even considered scripture & part of earlier canons, by some early Christians; The Shepherd of Hermas, tells how, Christ: "The Son of God is indeed more ancient than any creature; insomuch that he was in council with his Father at the creation of all things." Hermas 3, Similitude 9:110, in The Lost Books of the Bible & the Forgotten Books of Eden, (USA: World Bible Publishers, Alpha House, Inc., 1926), p. 255. Another translation reads: [FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]The Son of God is older than all His creatures, so that He was a fellow-councillor with the Father in His work of creation: for this reason is He old. The Shepherd of Hermas, Book 3, Similitude 9, chapter 12. [/FONT]

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[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]The Ethiopic Bible respect the Book of Enoch enough to include it in their bibles as scriptures. The book of Enoch translations, different ones, have come down to us from Jewish & historic Christianity. It was cited by the New Testament writers, Jude, for example. Jude might have had a purer translation during his time, in contrast to later texts discovered. It contains many pre-existence themes, the war in heaven, the fall of the angels, & even tells some of them by name & the evils they would do amongst the children of men. Such as the different evils they'd teach, tempt, & get humans to do: Such as magics, poisons, weapons of death, strikes of death, secret combinations, secret oaths of darkness, perversions of God's rituals, counterfeiting God's ways. Those sorts of things. However, the Book of Enoch has fallen out of use & favor with most Christian sects today, & perhaps rightfully so, because there's some doubts as to how authentic & pure what has been discovered thus far, is. However, Enoch was one of the earlier sources used to support pre-existence themes. A lot of early Christians, though they taught some aspects of it, rejected other aspects. Tertullian, for example, said that the spirit came into existence at the same time as the body, no pre-mortal existence. Any yet, he also taught other aspects of it, the war in heaven, the fall of the angels, & said that the writings of Enoch were scriptures.[/FONT]
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[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Free agency in the pre-existence was also an early issue too & it caused some to wonder if the conditions that people were born into, good or bad, reflected how they'd lived in the pre-existence, even sinned there. Some wonder if the man borned blind, was such a cases, had he or his parents sinned, that he was borned blind. Some biblical commentaries have argued over John 9:1-2. In fact, during the Council of Constantinople, 553 AD, it was still an issue, one that required anathmaizing those who believed that people born with black skins was because of their pre-mortal sins. By that time, Christianity had been flooded with differen concepts of the pre-existence, plus color symbolism that got literalized down through the centuries. For many started to associate dark skin raced humans with evil, the devil & demons, because the fallen angels in art were often depicted with black skins, symbolic of them fall from heaven & demonification down into the blackness & darkness of the underworld. They once were bright angels, but fell into darkness, as illustrated in thousands of art works & earlier bible illustrations. These color symbolism got mistaken & literalized in later Christianity, eventually to be used to justify enslaving African blacks. The devil was sometimes depicted as a black man riding backwards on a jack ass or horse. Black magic, black heart, black mail, black sabbath, dark thoughts, black death, all those are figures & types of talk that has been passed down from the earlier Christians' color symbolism. In time, the beliefs turned to legends, like in Russian speaking areas of Christianity, were the lakes, rivers, woods, & other places contain creatures of darkness, believed to be the fallen angels. Lord of the Rings also taps into the later legends of this too, with the gobblins, demons of the underworld, & those types of dark creatures, many of which are later legendized versions of the pre-existence themes.[/FONT]
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[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]About the 4th century onward, different early Christian fathers who taught it, got talked out of it. Origen's versions of the pre-existence later was later rejected, & yet many other areas of Christianity continued to pass this biblical belief down through the centuries. To illustrate it in their bible illustrations, to argue over what pre-mortals did, how they lived there. Did they live in tribes, what happened there. The council in heaven, the war in heaven, the fall of the angels, the fallen angels crashing down into the underworld, are often seen in art works & other Christian sources all over historic Chrisitainity. Different ones, like Christ & Adam are depicted as descending down from the pre-existence to be born into physical bodies. Because it was refected by many Christians of the 4th through the 6th centuries, it faded out of many churches, though other aspects remained, such as in art, illumination manuscriptes, & earlier bibles. Here's some sources to consider that the doctrine is biblical & was part of historic Christianity for centuries, but legendized in other areas too. Even early anti-Christians knew about this belief & mocked it, Celsus, for example, writing about 170-180 AD. It wasn't just a Gnostic Christian belief either, although they did have some strange versions that got rejected by the Church fathers who wrote against them. Celsus, not distinguishing between the rivals, lumps all of them together to poke fun of Christians in general that talk of two divine sons fighting, & of the fallen angels crashing down into the infernal regions to be punished in chains. Though this is not an extensive commentary on these beliefs, those who've studied historic Christianity as I have know that the pre-existence was & is biblical, & a big part of explaining & answering polemical attacks against Christianity. Those polemics of early anti-Christians, I'll save for another post for those interested.[/FONT]
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[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Bibliography:[/FONT]
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[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Angelo S. Rappoport, Ph. D., Ancient Israel Myths and Legends, (New York: Bonanza Books, 1987), 3 vols.

A. S. Garretson, Primitive Christianity And Early Criticism, (Boston: Sherman, French & Company, 1912).

Chandler Rathfon Post, A History of Spanish Painting, (Cambridge, Massachusetts: Harvard University Press, 19301958). (New York: Kraus reprint Company, 1970's).

Darell Thorpe, The Pre-existence: Our Pre-earth Life as Spirits In A Family in Heaven. Radio shows on pre-existence. Scroll down to art works. Scroll down to more art works on the council in heaven, war in heaven, etc.

E. A. Wallis Budge, Coptic Apocrypha in the Dialect of Upper Egypt, (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1913), 6 vols.

Ernst and Johanna Lehner, Devils, Demons, Death and Damnation, (New York: Dover Pictorial Archive Series, Dover Publishing Inc., 1971).

George Every, 1970 & 1987, Christian Legends, (New York: Peter Bedrick Books).

Gilles Quispel, The Secret Book of Revelation, (New York: McGraw-Hill Books Company, 1979).

Gustav Davidson, 1967, A Dictionary Of Angels, Including the Fallen Angels, (New York; London: The Free Press, and Collier-Macmillan Limited).

G. W. Butterworth, Origen On First Principles, (Gloucester, Massachuset: Peter Smith 1973, & Harper & Row, 1966).

J. Eugene Seaich: The Heavenly Council, Mysteries and Sacred Ordinances.

James M. Robinson, The Nag Hammadi Library In English, (San Francisco, California: Harper & Row, 1977).

Jeffrey Burton Russell, Satan, The Early Christian Tradition, (Ithaca, London: Cornell University Press, 1981). Lucifer, The Devil In the Middle Age, (Ithaca, London: Cornell University Press, 1984). The Prince of Darkness, Radical Evil and the Power of Good in History, (Ithaca, New York: Cornell University Press, 1988).

Joshua Moses Bennett: The Writings of the Rabbis & Other Important Discoveries. (Salt Lake City, Utah: Morning Star, 1990).

Linda J. Ivanits, Russian Folk Belief, (Armonk, New York & London England: M. E. Sharpe, Inc. 1989).

Louis Coulange (Father Louis Coulange), The Life of the Devil (London, England: Alfred A. Knopf, 1929, translated from the French by Stephen Haden Quest).

Nigel Morgan, Early Gothic Manuscripts, II, 1250 - 1285, A Survey of Manuscripts Illuminated in the British Isles - General Editor: J. J. G. Alexander, (London: Harvey Miller, 1988).

Otto A. Jager, Ethiopia Illuminated Manuscripts, (New York: The New York Graphic Society & Unesco).

Paul Carus, Dr., The History Of The Devil And The Idea Of Evil, From the earliest times to the present, (La Salle, Illinois: Open Court Publishing Company).

R. Joseph Hoffmann, (translator) Celsus On The True Doctrine, (A Discourse Against the early Christians), (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1987).

Richard Laurence, LL.D., (Trans.) The Book of Enoch The Prophet, (Re-issued: Williams & Norgate, 1892).

R. Mcl. Wilson, B.D., Ph.D., Translated from the Coptic Text, with an Introduction & Commentary, The Gospel of Philip, (London: A.R. Mowbray & Company).

Rutherford H. Platt, Jr., and J. Alden Brett, (Editors), The Forgotten Books of Eden, (U.S.A.: Alpha House, Inc., 1927).

R. G. Hamerton-Kelly, (Professor of the New Testament McCormick Theological Seminary, Chicago), Society for New Testament Studies Monograph Series 21, Pre-Existence, Wisdom And The Son of Man, A Study of the Idea of Pre-existence in the New Testament, (Cambridge University Press; Cambridge, Great Britain, 1973).

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skylark1 · Apr 16, 2015

RevelationTestament said:
Well, I try to use Biblical terms. As far as I know the Father remains the Father, but to be truthful, I don't know. My guess is there is a line of those who are the Father. LDS have a scripture which says the Father has created thousands of worlds, and I don't know how to reconcile that with my present understanding unless not all of them have been inhabited. I see only the creation of a new world. But part of me says there could be two new worlds. It is just not something evident from the scriptures which all speak of only one new earth or one regeneration. So despite any personal feeling or suspicion I may have, I have to stick with scripture.

I just thought that it might get confusing talking about the Father, and then Jesus becoming the Father. If we continue talking about this, I'll stick with the Biblical terms too.

Do you know if other LDS see this the same way? Or is this strictly the way that you see things from your own study? You have some interesting thoughts, and it seems like you have given it a lot of thought.

Well, I would say that is a "basic understanding." As we progress we become like the Son. So I don't see millions of new worlds created immediately after this one. Where are the Saviors for them? I know Christ does not return to corruption. His work of the Father on the cross is finished forevermore. The Father does not come into the world. His servants do His work in the world.

It is mind boggling wondering what is on all of the other planets in all of the galaxies out there. Sometimes I wonder if there is other life out there somewhere, or if the requirements for a planter to support life were so stringent that only this one planet could meet them.

I mean just as we are reborn in Christ and He becomes our Father, we were once born in the Father before the beginning. We at some point followed the Father's plan.

What is told in Abraham 3, or something else?

You are welcome. There are not only scriptures from the Bible, but a few corroborating scriptures in the Book of Mormon and some in the Doctrine and Covenants which speak to this subject. D & C clearly says that some will worship the beast in the next world.
Doctrine and Covenants 88:85
85 That their souls may escape the wrath of God, the desolation of abomination which awaits the wicked, both in this world and in the world to come.

The difference is in the world to come Jesus will not be our Savior, but our Father. He will no longer be the Son. So I cannot follow the doctrine of the trinity. Nor can I follow the doctrine of Bruce McKonkie.

Is it just the infinite time that you disagreed with in the quote in the OP?

We lived in this premortal life with him for an infinite period of time. We were on probation; we were being schooled and tested and examined; we were given the laws and the circumstances so that we could progress and advance.

This system was given to us, and for an infinite period of time, we advanced and progressed and did things that enabled us to go along the course leading to exaltation and dominion and godhood.

In this prior life, this premortal existence, this pre-existence, we developed various capacities and talents. Some developed them in one field and some in another. The most important of all fields was the field of spirituality, the ability, the talent, the capacity to recognize truth. (Bruce R. McConkie, as cited in When Thou Art Converted, Strengthen Thy Brethren, A Study Guide for the Melchizedek Priesthood Quorums of the Church, 197475, pp. 89.)

TasteForTruth · Apr 16, 2015

skylark1 said:
It has been discussed in a lot of other threads. I hope that it isn't discussed in this one.

Of course. If Brambleberry were to express interest, I'd suggest a new thread for sure.

skylark1 · Apr 16, 2015

Theway said:
First, almost all of what you posted is speculation, or it is a principle based on existing revelation. A principle of the gospel is where the actual doctrine or idea itself has not been revealed.
Second, where did you get the "intelligent" spirit matter from?
I understand his idea of there being eternal spirit matter (which would be an example of a principle)
Third, i do believe that we were being taught before we came here. But while in the spirit realm, we had reached a point where we had gone as far as we could go in our spiritual bodies only, and needed a phyical body, and even in some cases we needed to forget what we knew in order to progress.
It's like going to college; there comes a time when you have learned all you can about a subject from books and Instructors. Because all you have learned is purely academic and of little meaning if you have no practical or working knowledge of your studies. At one point in order to understand your field of study and grow in it, you will have to go out into the real world to practice and test what you have learned.
In our case the greatest lesson we need to learn by coming here, is to learn to live by faith. That could not happen had we retained our knowledge of God, who we truely are, and what is truely waiting for those who obey God out of their love for Him.
We are given a body so that through our trials and unfortunately through our errors, we can learn to control ourselves and our passions, and ironically, learn to live by faith to the point where faith has been perfected and is no longer needed as we are back to a knowledge of God. In essense we have become like God.
When we have become like God sharing the same attributes, only then can we experience the type of joy which He does... This is what God ultimately wants for us, to have joy, and to have it more abundantly.

None of this can be learned or fully understood by us while in a spiritual realm, and while under the full knowledge of God.

I replied to part of this post earlier today, but didn't have enough time to finish.

I posted this quote in the OP:

We lived in this premortal life with him for an infinite period of time. We were on probation; we were being schooled and tested and examined; we were given the laws and the circumstances so that we could progress and advance.

This system was given to us, and for an infinite period of time, we advanced and progressed and did things that enabled us to go along the course leading to exaltation and dominion and godhood.

In this prior life, this premortal existence, this pre-existence, we developed various capacities and talents. Some developed them in one field and some in another. The most important of all fields was the field of spirituality, the ability, the talent, the capacity to recognize truth. (Bruce R. McConkie, as cited in When Thou Art Converted, Strengthen Thy Brethren, A Study Guide for the Melchizedek Priesthood Quorums of the Church, 197475, pp. 89.)

This spoke of being on probation in a pre-mortal life, and during that time being schooled and tested, and advancing and progressing. In the Book of Mormon the heading at the beginning of Alma 42 includes, "Mortality is a probationary time to enable man to repent and serve God." Verse 4 states, "4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God." It seems like there were other times when I have heard LDS refer to mortality as a probationary period. So if according to LDS the pre-mortal life included a probationary time, and we advanced and progressed, then why is also necessary to come to earth and be born here so that we can undergo a probationary time of testing, so that we can advance and progress? (I hope that question made sense.)

If anyone would like to respond to this I'd appreciate it.

RevelationTestament · Apr 17, 2015

skylark1 said:
Do you know if other LDS see this the same way? Or is this strictly the way that you see things from your own study? You have some interesting thoughts, and it seems like you have given it a lot of thought.

Well, it seems this is something most have not considered before. When they read the Bible they make assumptions about what it means or "must" mean, so have not considered what I am saying. I can't say that my understanding comes from my own study. I would say rather that many years ago I made a commitment to my Father, and that altered the course of my life - sometimes in painful ways. Nevertheless, in 1998 I prayed to know who the false prophet of Revelation was, and it seems that set me on another course entirely. So I do not take credit for my understanding. The Lord has guided me in studying the scriptures to understand them. So I really doubt there is currently anyone who believes or knows exactly as me. This is not their fault, but it seems the Lord was ready to move forward with His plan to humble the men on the earth.

It is mind boggling wondering what is on all of the other planets in all of the galaxies out there. Sometimes I wonder if there is other life out there somewhere, or if the requirements for a planter to support life were so stringent that only this one planet could meet them.

Oh no. There are other planets capable of sustaining life.

What is told in Abraham 3, or something else?

Abraham 3 is to reveal the order of heaven. I don't feel it really speaks to the issue of the new world/s,

Is it just the infinite time that you disagreed with in the quote in the OP?

We lived in this premortal life with him for an infinite period of time. We were on probation; we were being schooled and tested and examined; we were given the laws and the circumstances so that we could progress and advance.

I don't know about infinite time, but it seems we have existed as spirits for basically as long heavenly Father has existed as spirit. I am saying that not all our preexistence was spent in a spirit world or whatever you want to call it. Some has been spent in prior worlds.

This system was given to us, and for an infinite period of time, we advanced and progressed and did things that enabled us to go along the course leading to exaltation and dominion and godhood.

I am ok with this statement as a general principle.

In this prior life, this premortal existence, this pre-existence, we developed various capacities and talents. Some developed them in one field and some in another. The most important of all fields was the field of spirituality, the ability, the talent, the capacity to recognize truth. (Bruce R. McConkie, as cited in When Thou Art Converted, Strengthen Thy Brethren, A Study Guide for the Melchizedek Priesthood Quorums of the Church, 197475, pp. 89.)

I firmly do believe our spirits have different capabilities or talents. I don't feel these were necessarily created by God, but I would say that God will help us nurture our talents. I believe God does prize the ability to understand and live truth, and "looks" for a godly seed - those who will look to Him for understanding and teaching.

Rescued One · Apr 27, 2015

skylark1 said:
Yesterday I was reading an old thread to which someone had linked. Although I had posted on that thread, my participation was limited to a side discussion. Since that thread appears to have been closed I am starting a new one to ask a few questions. I'm not sure that it warrants an entire thread, but I don't know where else to ask. When reading through the old thread, I came across this post:

I read the links, and wanted to read the quotes that were in them in context, so I searched for the original quotes. In one of the source, I read:

We lived in this premortal life with him for an infinite period of time. We were on probation; we were being schooled and tested and examined; we were given the laws and the circumstances so that we could progress and advance.

This system was given to us, and for an infinite period of time, we advanced and progressed and did things that enabled us to go along the course leading to exaltation and dominion and godhood.

In this prior life, this premortal existence, this pre-existence, we developed various capacities and talents. Some developed them in one field and some in another. The most important of all fields was the field of spirituality, the ability, the talent, the capacity to recognize truth. (Bruce R. McConkie, as cited in When Thou Art Converted, Strengthen Thy Brethren, A Study Guide for the Melchizedek Priesthood Quorums of the Church, 197475, pp. 89.)

Our spirit bodies went through a long period of growth and development and training and, having passed the test successfully, were finally admitted to this earth and to mortality. (Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 5.)

source

These quotes seem to indicate that before being born with a body that spirits were being trained and tested; and that they advanced and progressed. I thought that was what LDS taught that being born on earth with a body was about? I didn't realize that they taught that this same thing was happening premortally. Am I understanding this correctly?

I linked the OP post, but a response is open to and welcome from anyone. I don't expect someone to feel that they need to respond to something that they wrote from a few years ago. There was a comment made yesterday that seemed to put those who have posted here for some time in a bad light. I'd rather not be thought of by participating in this and other discussions as a stone stuck in someone's shoe, patiently endured, but constantly irritating. That is not my intent in asking this. I am just curious if my understanding of LDS theology is correct, and that the premortal life is considered to have been a time of training, testing, advancing and progressing?

We made vows, solemn vows, in the heavens before we came to this mortal life.

We have made covenants. We made them before we accepted our position here on the earth. We committed ourselves to our Heavenly Father, that if he would send us to the earth and give us bodies and give to us the priceless opportunities that earth life afforded we would keep our lives clean and would marry in the holy temple and would rear a family and teach them righteousness. This was a solemn oath, a solemn promise (Be Ye Therefore Perfect, devotional talk, University of Utah Institute of Religion, 10 Jan. 1975).

- Spencer W. Kimball

Lesson 29: Exaltation, Young Women Manual 2, (1993)

I don't know why physical bodies are necessary other than to be able to have a "continuation of the seeds forever."

RevelationTestament · Apr 27, 2015

Phoebe Ann said:
We made vows, solemn vows, in the heavens before we came to this mortal life.

We have made covenants. We made them before we accepted our position here on the earth. We committed ourselves to our Heavenly Father, that if he would send us to the earth and give us bodies and give to us the priceless opportunities that earth life afforded we would keep our lives clean and would marry in the holy temple and would rear a family and teach them righteousness. This was a solemn oath, a solemn promise (Be Ye Therefore Perfect, devotional talk, University of Utah Institute of Religion, 10 Jan. 1975).

- Spencer W. Kimball
Lesson 29: Exaltation, Young Women Manual 2, (1993)

I don't know why physical bodies are necessary other than to be able to have a "continuation of the seeds forever."

This is eternal life - to be in God's covenant

skylark1 · Apr 27, 2015

Phoebe Ann said:
We made vows, solemn vows, in the heavens before we came to this mortal life. …

We have made covenants. We made them before we accepted our position here on the earth. … We committed ourselves to our Heavenly Father, that if he would send us to the earth and give us bodies and give to us the priceless opportunities that earth life afforded we would keep our lives clean and would marry in the holy temple and would rear a family and teach them righteousness. This was a solemn oath, a solemn promise” (“‘Be Ye Therefore Perfect,’” devotional talk, University of Utah Institute of Religion, 10 Jan. 1975).

- Spencer W. Kimball

Lesson 29: Exaltation, Young Women Manual 2, (1993)

I don't know why physical bodies are necessary other than to be able to have a "continuation of the seeds forever."

I actually wanted to start a new thread about that (bolded part of quote). I am so crazy busy over the next few days that I do not have time to discuss it. (I probably shouldn't even be reading here now.) If everyone could hold off discussing that for a few days I would really appreciate it.

Ran77 · Apr 27, 2015

Phoebe Ann said:
I don't know why physical bodies are necessary other than to be able to have a "continuation of the seeds forever."

A physical body opens senses to us that were not available as a spirit. A physical also allows us to interact with the physical universe in a way that we could not as a spirit. I suspect that we will find there is much more to our senses and physical interactions than we currently understand. In other words, I believe we are only just beginning to discover what our physical bodies can do and what doors will be open to us because of them.

Theway · Apr 28, 2015

skylark1 said:
I replied to part of this post earlier today, but didn't have enough time to finish.

I posted this quote in the OP:

We lived in this premortal life with him for an infinite period of time. We were on probation; we were being schooled and tested and examined; we were given the laws and the circumstances so that we could progress and advance. …

“This system was given to us, and for an infinite period of time, we advanced and progressed and did things that enabled us to go along the course leading to exaltation and dominion and godhood. …

“In this prior life, this premortal existence, this pre-existence, we developed various capacities and talents. Some developed them in one field and some in another. The most important of all fields was the field of spirituality, the ability, the talent, the capacity to recognize truth.” (Bruce R. McConkie, as cited in When Thou Art Converted, Strengthen Thy Brethren, A Study Guide for the Melchizedek Priesthood Quorums of the Church, 1974–75, pp. 8–9.)

This spoke of being on probation in a pre-mortal life, and during that time being schooled and tested, and advancing and progressing. In the Book of Mormon the heading at the beginning of Alma 42 includes, "Mortality is a probationary time to enable man to repent and serve God." Verse 4 states, "4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God." It seems like there were other times when I have heard LDS refer to mortality as a probationary period. So if according to LDS the pre-mortal life included a probationary time, and we advanced and progressed, then why is also necessary to come to earth and be born here so that we can undergo a probationary time of testing, so that we can advance and progress? (I hope that question made sense.)

If anyone would like to respond to this I'd appreciate it.

.
There are really two probationary periods. Those which "passed" so to speak, their first probationary period are those who kept their "First Estate" they are the two thirds that followed The Fathers Plan.

The Second probationary period is our earth life. We had to come down through a veil of forgetfulness so that we could be truely tested and learn to live by faith.
This test could not happen while in full knowledge of God and who we truely are...

It's like telling your parents you will do what they say while they are in front of you; those that did not keep their First Estate did not even say that much. But the real test, and hence the greatest learning comes when your parents are not there and you believe no one is watching.

drstevej · Apr 28, 2015

Theway said:
.
We had to come down through a veil of forgetfulness so that we could be truely tested and learn to live by faith.

Pure Smithism. NO THANKS

RevelationTestament · Apr 28, 2015

drstevej said:
Pure Smithism. NO THANKS

Isaiah 65:17
17 ¶For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Der Alte · Apr 28, 2015

RevelationTestament said:
Isaiah 65:17
17 ¶For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Future, not past. This does not explain anything about LDS false doctrine.

Ran77 · Apr 28, 2015

RevelationTestament said:
Isaiah 65:17
17 ¶For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Imagine that, a "Smithism" that comes from the Bible.

:o

drstevej · Apr 28, 2015

Ran77 said:
Imagine that, a "Smithism" that comes from the Bible.

:o

Nope. Isaiah is describing a future event when a new heavens and earth are created.

cf Rev 21

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

cf 2 Pet 3

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.[a]
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.[b] That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

=====

Just de-Smith the text and it makes sense.

Rescued One · Apr 28, 2015

skylark1 said:
I actually wanted to start a new thread about that (bolded part of quote). I am so crazy busy over the next few days that I do not have time to discuss it. (I probably shouldn't even be reading here now.) If everyone could hold off discussing that for a few days I would really appreciate it.

I can't speak for others, but I'm waiting.

RevelationTestament · Apr 28, 2015

Ran77 said:
Imagine that, a "Smithism" that comes from the Bible.
:o

Same veil, yep, different earth.
When Jesus was crucified the veil in the temple was rent because He revealed the Father to man for all to see, but it seems not many did.

Premortal Existance (LDS)

Half-truths are lies wearing makeup

Our God is a consuming fire.

In awesome wonder

EarlyChristianresearcher

Guest

In awesome wonder

Half-truths are lies wearing makeup

In awesome wonder

Our God is a consuming fire.

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Our God is a consuming fire.

In awesome wonder

Senior Contributor

Senior Member

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."

Our God is a consuming fire.

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Senior Contributor

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Our God is a consuming fire.

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