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"Prehistoric" Fossils and Creation

Dayton

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by Carl Wieland
First published in:
Creation 21(1):54-55,
December 1998-February 1999


Most people think that fossil bones (of which the most well-known examples are those of dinosaurs) must be very, very old—because, after all, they have turned to stone, haven’t they?

Even millions of years might, to some, not even seem long enough to allow for natural processes to gradually, molecule by molecule, replace the original substance of the bone with rock minerals.

But this common picture is misleading. A recent book, co-authored by a world expert on dinosaurs, points out some things about dinosaur bones that are of great interest to creationists.1

For one thing, it says:

‘Bones do not have to be “turned into stone” to be fossils, and usually most of the original bone is still present in a dinosaur fossil.’2
OK, but even if the actual bone is not replaced by rock minerals, some fossil dinosaur bones are rock-hard, and show under the microscope when cut that they have been thoroughly ‘permineralized’. This means that rock minerals have been deposited into all the spaces within the original bone. Doesn’t this show that the formation of these fossils, at least, must represent a long time? Think again. The same authoritative work also tells us:

‘The amount of time that it takes for a bone to become completely permineralized is highly variable. If the groundwater is heavily laden with minerals in solution, the process can happen rapidly. Modern bones that fall into mineral springs can become permineralized within a matter of weeks.’

So even a rock-solid, hard shiny fossil dinosaur bone, showing under the microscope that all available spaces have been totally filled with rock minerals, does not indicate that it necessarily took millions of years to form at all.

Now of course if a dinosaur bone is indeed permineralized, it would give it great protection from the normal processes which cause things such as bone to just naturally ‘fall apart’. So a permineralized bone might indeed be anything from a few weeks to millions of years old.

However, in a situation where the dinosaur bone has been prevented from being invaded by mineral-rich water, one would expect that over millions of years, even locked away from all bacterial agents, dinosaur bone would, in obeying the laws of thermodynamics,3 just disintegrate from the random motions of the molecules therein.

There are actually instances, mentioned in the same book, in which dinosaur bones in Alberta, Canada, were encased in ironstone nodules shortly after being buried. We are told:

‘The nodules prevented water from invading the bones, which for all intents and purposes cannot be distinguished from modern bone.’4
This is a stunning revelation. Evolutionists are convinced that all dinosaur bones must be at least 65 million years old. Those who take Genesis as real history would predict that no dinosaur bone is more than a few thousand years old, so the existence of such totally unmineralised dinosaur bones that have not disintegrated is perfectly consistent with our expectations.

We have previously told you about the unfossilised dinosaur bone which still contained red blood cells and hemoglobin.5 Also, we wrote about ‘fresh dinosaur bones’ in Alaska.6 Let the evolutionist experts writing this book confirm this:

‘An even more spectacular example was found on the North Shore of Alaska, where many thousands of bones lack any significant degree of permineralization. The bones look and feel like old cow bones, and the discoverers of the site did not report it for twenty years because they assumed they were bison, not dinosaur, bones.’

In summary, therefore:

Most fossil dinosaur bones still contain the original bone.

Even when heavily permineralized (fossilized), this does not need to require more than a few weeks. The Creation/Flood scenario for fossilization would allow many centuries for such permineralization to occur, even under less than ideal conditions.

Where bones have not been protected by permineralization, they are sometimes found in a condition which to all intents and purpose looks as if they are at most centuries, not millions of years old.

The Bible’s account of the true history of the world makes it clear that no fossil can be more than a few thousand years old. Dinosaur bones give evidence strongly consistent with this.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/
 

the_malevolent_milk_man

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If fossils can be made in weeks then it should be easy enough to make some and compare them against real fossils. Would be interesting to see if it changes the structure any.

If fossils can be formed rapidly in high mineral concentration areas wouldn't the opposite also be true? If a fossil forms in an area of low mineral concentration then it would indicate a long time. By varying the mineral concentration we could create our own test fossils and measure the rate at which different bones fossilize under different conditions.

However simply looking at a fossil is no way to determine it's age. Radiometric dating and natural time markers still indicate that they are very old. Depending on conditions preservation can vary wildly.



AIG has never impressed me, especially on the flood which is probabbly the most important issue since it involves so many factors.

It's lines like this that kill the site, it's hard to trust them because of this.

"Creationists have a plausible mechanism for the Ice Age - that it was an aftermath of Noah's Flood. When the 'all the fountains of the great deep' broke up, this would have brought much hot water and lava to the earth's surface. This in itself would have released much water vapour into the atmosphere - volcanic emissions often have large proportions of water. Also when these 'fountains' poured directly into the oceans, it would have raised their average temperature, increasing evaporation. And all the volcanic ash in the air after the Flood would block out much sunlight, cooling the land."

I'm sure they're right about something though, law of averages and all. However on the subject you posted they really need to do some more digging (no pun intended) before any real conclusions can be reached.
 
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goat37

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One thing I never see addressed is craters... meteor impacts. If the earth was only 6,000 years old, we would have far more stories of all the impacts of meteors that hit the earth and created these giant craters on land and mostly under the ocean. Yet, we don't have hear too many stories of meteor impacts from stories 2-4K years ago... obviously they must have happened because the craters are physical evidence as well as the around of iridium located near them.
 
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Mechanical Bliss

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There are so many falsehoods there I don't know where to begin. Are you just going to keep throwing around a the website of a dishonest organization and copying and pasting stuff, or do you have any actual substance to add to the discussion.

Besides, fossils are not deemed old simply because they are fossils. We have a wide variety of methods that indicate old ages.

Of course there is zero evidence that fossilization of dinosaur bones has taken place in such a way. Furthermore, the argument relies purely on a "what if" scenario without any supporting evidence. Thankfully science has higher standards than creationist organizations.
 
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the_malevolent_milk_man

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Just thought of something... Even if a fossil can be made in short periods of times so what? It's a fossil, it's not going anywhere now. It could sit there for 4000 or 65million years, it's not going to become even more fossilized once it's fully fossilized. If it's not fully fossilized then it fits in with the tradtional idea that fossils take a really long time to form just as well as it does for YEC, it doesn't prove anything either way.

However I'd still like to see how the rate of mineralization affects the structure, if it has any impact at all. Not so much for aging purposes but for a better understanding of the process.
 
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J

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goat37 said:
One thing I never see addressed is craters... meteor impacts. If the earth was only 6,000 years old, we would have far more stories of all the impacts of meteors that hit the earth and created these giant craters on land and mostly under the ocean. Yet, we don't have hear too many stories of meteor impacts from stories 2-4K years ago... obviously they must have happened because the craters are physical evidence as well as the around of iridium located near them.

ever heard of the weather? this is just one of many processes that lead to us not having many craters. furthermore, your point kills itself, because the moon has lots of craters,... why does the moon have all those craters if it is only 6000 years old.... were all the meteors aimed at the moon? is it God's firing range or just an amazing coincidence.
 
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goat37

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Jet Black said:
ever heard of the weather? this is just one of many processes that lead to us not having many craters. furthermore, your point kills itself, because the moon has lots of craters,... why does the moon have all those craters if it is only 6000 years old.... were all the meteors aimed at the moon? is it God's firing range or just an amazing coincidence.

.......... and your point is?

What I am saying is that all of those impacts could not have happened in 6000 years because there would have been for more stories about them, which there are not. The earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the moon got all of those craters from meteors/asteroids etc... most of them happened a very long time ago when our solor system was a bit more volatile... and due to the smooth maria on the moon, it goes to show that the moon was part liquid at one point, and after the meteors hit them, lava flowed out and filled in it and then hardened.
 
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Volos

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Dayton if your assertions were true that would then lead to the very sticky question of explaining just why there are no fossils of cattle, elephants, bears, felines and other mammals near the stegosaurus or t-rex fossils, or why whale fossils aren’t found together with trilobite fossils.
 
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The age of fossils isn't measured by it's mineral content but by how long the carbon in it takes to break down, Scientists know the half life of a carbon molecule and by measuring where in the process of breakdown the carbon molecule is they can determine its age.

I'll probably open a can of worms here but I believe that God created the universe by the process of evolution.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth
2. The Earth was without out form and void: and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3. Then God said "Let there be light"; and there was light.

We know that in order to make a celestial body minerals, gases and water have to be present and with the friction of the minerals and the oxygen and hydrogen of the water(which is present in space) it ignites the gases and produces...you guessed it...light. When all these things continue to coalesce it produces a celestial body.
We also have to remember that a thousand years to us is like a day to God.
 
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goat37

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The Gunner said:
The age of fossils isn't measured by it's mineral content but by how long the carbon in it takes to break down, Scientists know the half life of a carbon molecule and by measuring where in the process of breakdown the carbon molecule is they can determine its age.

I'll probably open a can of worms here but I believe that God created the universe by the process of evolution.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth
2. The Earth was without out form and void: and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3. Then God said "Let there be light"; and there was light.

We know that in order to make a celestial body minerals, gases and water have to be present and with the friction of the minerals and the oxygen and hydrogen of the water(which is present in space) it ignites the gases and produces...you guessed it...light. When all these things continue to coalesce it produces a celestial body.
We also have to remember that a thousand years to us is like a day to God.

Just wanted to add that carbon isn't what is used for the radiometric dating of rocks and fossils that are millions and billions of years old.. it is only accurate to about 60,000 years or so.
You have to move to isotopes with longer half-lives such as uranium, thorium, and rubidium.
Carbon is what is used to determine how long a carbon based life form has been dead for, but since the fossils of dinosaurs are much much older than 60,000 years that particular type of radiometric dating is not used, so you have to use other isotopes to date the rocks and such around it...
 
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revolutio

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Another way to date the age of something buried underground is to count the number of magnetic pole shifts that have occured in the rocks above it and in it.

This is a very vague estimate compared to other methods but the evidence is some of the tougher to dispute since nothing else known to man causes wide scale shifts in the directs molecules point.

I would like to hear a Christian's take on the reason for these shifts and how often they think they happen.

According to science these magnetic pole shifts can be anywhere from 100,000 to 25 million years apart.

EDIT: That link isn't the best but it is impossible to find reasonable information on them. They seem to be a spectacle for paranormal fanatics. Plus that darn Mayan Calendar isn't making this any easier.
 
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