Pregnant Man

[Maren]

Since the story of the pregnant man is making such a splash in the News forum, I thought I'd create a thread here where people can actually talk/debate on the issues this news article is causing.

Among the claims and questions I see:

1. What determines a persons sex/gender?

2. When talking of a person's sex and gender, are they the same thing?

3. For those that claim "God doesn't make those mistakes", how do you explain intersexed people? Further, where in the Bible does it talk of gender/sex being a sin to change?

I'm sure there are more that will come up in the thread, but I think that will be enough to get us started.

 

[The Nihilist]

The only error you made is in not pointing out the hilarity of the whole thing

 

[fuzzymel]

I am confused. If this person truely wanted to be a man then why on earth did they get pregnant? I have a feeling that this person may have been confused more than anything.

I do believe some people are male living in a female body or female living in a male body. Because this person got pregnant I am not too sure if he is one of those people.

 

[Sitswithamouse]

This doesn't bother me morally one bit.
I just wish the couple the best of luck and that they have a happy healthy baby.

 

[cantata]

It's cool.

Why should someone have to be (or feel like being) all-man or all-woman? We're all a bit of both, really, if not as obviously as this person.

Gender is very fluid.

 

[Vene]

It's sick, wrong, and disgusting.
There, I beat the bigots because transsexuality doesn't really bother me.

I'm more surprised that he was able to get pregnant after taking testosterone. I would have thought it would have stopped his menstrual cycle.

Still, I wish him and his baby the best.

 

[Maren]

I am confused. If this person truely wanted to be a man then why on earth did they get pregnant? I have a feeling that this person may have been confused more than anything.

I do believe some people are male living in a female body or female living in a male body. Because this person got pregnant I am not too sure if he is one of those people.

From other sources, it is because his wife is unable to get pregnant. So, since the couple wanted a child and the husband was physically capable of getting pregnant they decided to do it. I think if the person was confused about their gender, rather than being transsexual, that this wouldn't be a news story but rather just another woman having a baby.

 

[JulySheMustFly]

Never mind. Did my own research. I have no opinion on this other than it makes things complicated as a parent.

 

[True_Blue]

Since the story of the pregnant man is making such a splash in the News forum, I thought I'd create a thread here where people can actually talk/debate on the issues this news article is causing.

Among the claims and questions I see:

1. What determines a persons sex/gender?

2. When talking of a person's sex and gender, are they the same thing?

3. For those that claim "God doesn't make those mistakes", how do you explain intersexed people? Further, where in the Bible does it talk of gender/sex being a sin to change?

I'm sure there are more that will come up in the thread, but I think that will be enough to get us started.

1. A person's sex is determined by the chromosomes present in every cell in a person's body. Specifically, the presence or absence of the SRY and ZFY genes, usually found in what is termed the Y chromosome, probably determine whether a person is male or not.

2. A person's "gender" is determined by society, which in turn should be synonymous with "sex." Societies generally don't set about creating categories for more than 2 sexes.

3. God doesn't make mistakes. When physical sex is characterized according to genetics rather than genital norms or abnormalities, it's easy to tell whether a person is male or female. The idea that intersexed people are neither male nor female works better in theory than in practice. Virtually every intersexed person views themselves as either male or female. Guys with Klinefelter Syndrome (XXY) don't view themselves as anything other than men. They have a Y chromosome with SRY and ZFY genes. There are lots of conditions out there, but determining sex, with the right tests, is pretty straightforward.

In the case of the transsexual "man" who became pregnant, she never became a "man" in the first place. A man who loses his genitals in an accident doesn't become a woman, and woman can't become a man by cutting off her breasts and taking any amount of medication. To change sex, you have to swap out every single cell in your body, and that's impossible under current medical science.

It's far more complicated to try to figure out why it is that some people are male or physical in every single respect, yet think they are really of the opposite gender. I believe there are different causes for different transsexuals. Email me if you want more specifics.

It's true that the Bible is silent on sex change surgery, just as it's silent on the issue of cloning, for example. The Bible does ask us to honor God with our bodies, and I can’t imagine how sex change operations honor God. For one thing, the surgeries are medically very dangerous. Transsexuals and transgender persons need love, prayer, and sometimes skillful counseling. Surgeries and hormones are attempts to treat the symptoms--they don't offer a cure. I happen to think love and prayer are the best answer for transsexual and transgender people.

 

[Vene]

1. A person's sex is determined by the chromosomes present in every cell in a person's body. Specifically, the presence or absence of the SRY and ZFY genes, usually found in what is termed the Y chromosome, probably determine whether a person is male or not.

Normally, yes, but not always.
XX Male Syndrome
Swyer Syndrome
In both of these cases the individual's phenotype and genotype do not match.

Transsexuals and transgender persons need love, prayer, and sometimes skillful counseling.

Agreed.

Surgeries and hormones are attempts to treat the symptoms--they don't offer a cure. I happen to think love and prayer are the best answer for transsexual and transgender people.

Then you better pray that their brain undergoes some fundamental changes. Their neural composition is closer to that of the opposite sex their genitals suggest.
link

 

[True_Blue]

As noted in one of the links you provided and in my previous post, the theory is that the specific genes I mentioned determine the sex. Thus, we have XX Male Syndrome and Swyer Syndrome.

I've read some of the studies attempting to find neural links and causalities to these questions. The studies, taken as a whole, are inconclusive. We still know almost nothing about the brain. It's a phenomenally complicated piece of machinery. I'm certainly open to the possibility that transgenderism has a neurological origin, but I'm very skeptical about any study that implies that transsexuals are crazy. I do not believe transsexuals have some sort of mental disease or defect, though I have no evidence to back up my assertion.

 

[True_Blue]

Normally, yes, but not always.
XX Male Syndrome
Swyer Syndrome
In both of these cases the individual's phenotype and genotype do not match.


Agreed.

Then you better pray that their brain undergoes some fundamental changes. Their neural composition is closer to that of the opposite sex their genitals suggest.
link

As mentioned in one of the links you cited and in my previous post, the presence or absence of particular genes determines sex, not strictly the presence of absence of a Y chromosome. Hence we have XX males and XY females, though these conditions are exceedingly rare.

I've read some of the studies on transsexualism and links/relationships to the brain. Studies are conflicting. For example:
Yes: Zhou J.-N, et al., A Sex Difference in the Human Brain and its Relation to Transsexuality, 1 IJT 1, (1997).
No: Harold Persky, Ph.D. Pyschoendocrinology of Human Sexual Behavior, 6 J. SEX. MED. 226.
The human brain is exceedingly complicated, perhaps the most complicated physical object in the universe. We may never get a definitive answer as to whether the brain causes transsexuality. I personally am not comfortable with the idea that transsexuals are crazy. I don't think that it does them a service to speculate without definitive knowledge that they have a mental abnormality or disorder.

 

[PetersKeys]

This is sickening. All the effects from hormone therapy might hurt the child in utero. Why can't people just let nature take its course? That poor child.

 

[Vene]

I've read some of the studies on transsexualism and links/relationships to the brain. Studies are conflicting. For example:
Yes: Zhou J.-N, et al., A Sex Difference in the Human Brain and its Relation to Transsexuality, 1 IJT 1, (1997).
No: Harold Persky, Ph.D. Pyschoendocrinology of Human Sexual Behavior, 6 J. SEX. MED. 226.
The human brain is exceedingly complicated, perhaps the most complicated physical object in the universe. We may never get a definitive answer as to whether the brain causes transsexuality. I personally am not comfortable with the idea that transsexuals are crazy. I don't think that it does them a service to speculate without definitive knowledge that they have a mental abnormality or disorder.

Hmm, I'll go and read more.

This is sickening. All the effects from hormone therapy might hurt the child in utero. Why can't people just let nature take its course? That poor child.

He stopped taking hormones so he could get pregnant.

Beatie was able to keep the reproductive organs he was born with. The article said he stopped getting the injections and was able to get pregnant.

 

[FaithLikeARock]

Gender is determined by biology.

It doesn't determine the person.

 

[MoonlessNight]

The main problem I have with the redefinition of sex to self reporting is that it leads to situations where I have no idea what is actually happening, like this one.

I think that there is valid reasoning for wanting to separate the ideas of sex and gender. But it seems to me like after doing that we just defined sex as gender again

The main thing I don't understand about the current linguistic situation is that sex is differentiated by gender in that you have to go through some physical changes, or at least changes in appearance. But these changes cannot be complete, and at this point they don't even have to be very major. So I don't see how there is any distinction between sex and gender when for all intents and purposes they both come down to whatever the person identifies as at the moment.

Though we did lose a word for a concept somewhere along the way? Perhaps we should throw in the term biological sex? At birth sex? Anything like that?

 

[Vene]

The main problem I have with the redefinition of sex to self reporting is that it leads to situations where I have no idea what is actually happening, like this one.

I think that there is valid reasoning for wanting to separate the ideas of sex and gender. But it seems to me like after doing that we just defined sex as gender again

The main thing I don't understand about the current linguistic situation is that sex is differentiated by gender in that you have to go through some physical changes, or at least changes in appearance. But these changes cannot be complete, and at this point they don't even have to be very major. So I don't see how there is any distinction between sex and gender when for all intents and purposes they both come down to whatever the person identifies as at the moment.

Though we did lose a word for a concept somewhere along the way? Perhaps we should throw in the term biological sex? At birth sex? Anything like that?

Maybe something like "physical (or biological) sex" and "mental sex?"

 

[Mling]

This is sickening. All the effects from hormone therapy might hurt the child in utero. Why can't people just let nature take its course? That poor child.

The hormones prevent ovulation and would, in fact, harm the child. That's why FtM men stop taking them during pregnancy.

 

[Paulos23]

This is more of a situation that falls between the cracks of our language. What do you call someone like this:

1. Genetically female.
2. Has female plumbing.
3. Cosmetically male.
4. Psychologically male.

We really don't have a word for someone like this. So we get shocking news stories from the papers taking advantage of this.

Personally though, I really don't have a problem with it.

 

[wanderingone]

I am confused. If this person truely wanted to be a man then why on earth did they get pregnant? I have a feeling that this person may have been confused more than anything.

I do believe some people are male living in a female body or female living in a male body. Because this person got pregnant I am not too sure if he is one of those people.

He chose to get pregnant by artificial insemination because his wife cannot have children.