predicting Christ's coming

eclipsenow · Feb 27, 2013

Ronald said:
Everything was and is being done. People are still being saved. The Jews have been blinded until the times of the gentiles be fulfilled and then the Lord will lift their veils. Here are some scriptures that you may have overlooked:
"For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.

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You've overlooked the way the majority of Reformers interpretted this passage, and the emphasis of Scripture in the New Testament. The overall picture is one of the gospel exploding out of national confines. It's not about Israel any more! If anything, we are Israel, us Christians! So "All Israel" means the church united with both Jews and Gentiles as WE are the recipients of the promise. See Romans and especially Hebrews where every Jewish item and tradition is interpreted through the gospel lense.

Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all." Rom.11:25-32

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Same reply as bove.

There are differences for sure, a half dozen views of Revelation. Among all the futurists, a common desire to have Jesus return and fix this corrupted world, put an end to sin, cast Satan and his horde down to the Abyss and lock him up

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That is not a uniquely futurist desire at all, but the yearning desire of all godly Christians groaning at the sin in this world. "How long O Lord?" should be the cry of all Christians who suffer the evils of this world, whether under very real persecution, or even just the prejudice and misunderstanding of the world. Both Preterists and Amils also long for this. The difference is we have more of a sense of urgency, as we're not delaying the Lord's return in our theology by insisting XYZ has to come first. It really could happen in 5 seconds! Or 50,000 years. We don't know.

Keachian · Feb 27, 2013

eclipsenow said:
That is not a uniquely futurist desire at all, but the yearning desire of all godly Christians groaning at the sin in this world. "How long O Lord?" should be the cry of all Christians who suffer the evils of this world, whether under very real persecution, or even just the prejudice and misunderstanding of the world. Both Preterists and Amils also long for this. The difference is we have more of a sense of urgency, as we're not delaying the Lord's return in our theology by insisting XYZ has to come first. It really could happen in 5 seconds! Or 50,000 years. We don't know.

Yes, just because we aren't futurists doesn't mean we don't take seriously:
Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.

The Spirit and the Bride say, Come. And let the one who hears say, Come. And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.

...

He who testifies to these things says, Surely I am coming soon.
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

Bible2 · Feb 28, 2013

Ronald said in post 121:

I would agree with most of it with the exception of Dan.9:27, a third temple, since we are the temple of God.

While the church as a whole is a figurative temple building (Eph. 2:21), it coexists as the temple of God with the literal temple building in heaven (Rev. 11:19), and with the temple of Jesus' individual human body (Jn. 2:21), and with the temple of every Christian's individual human body (1 Cor. 6:19). And if the church-as-a-whole temple can currently coexist with all these other temples of God, it will be able to coexist with the future, 3rd-earthly-literal temple building which the scriptures show will exist during the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24 (Rev. 11:1-2, Mt. 24:15, Dan. 11:31,36, 2 Thes. 2:4), which 3rd temple building will be accepted by God as a valid temple, just as the 2nd temple building was accepted by God as a valid temple, even at the time of Jesus' first coming (Mt. 23:21) and even at the time of the early church (Lk. 24:53, Acts 22:17).

For the ultra-Orthodox Jews will build the 3rd temple, and they will offer animal sacrifices in front of it, under the auspices of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (the OCML), which remains holy before God (Rom. 7:12). That's why God still keeps an ark of the OCML in his temple building in heaven (Rev. 11:19), and why it was possible for the apostle Paul one time to involve himself with the 2nd temple's OCML practices without him committing sin (Acts 21:20-26, 1 Cor. 9:20). This isn't to say that the Jesus-denying motives of the ultra-Orthodox Jews will be holy before God, but that the OCML 3rd temple in itself and its animal sacrifices in themselves will be holy before God because the OCML in itself remains holy before God (Rom. 7:12), even though its letter is no longer meant to be practiced by people (Rom. 7:6) because the New Covenant has been inaugurated by Jesus and his once-for-all-time sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Heb. 10:1-23, Mt. 26:28).

Bible2 · Feb 28, 2013

eclipsenow said in post 122:

If anything, we are Israel, us Christians!

That's right, for all genetic Jews in the church remain Israel (Rom. 11:1), & all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Rom. 11:17,24, Eph. 2:12,19, Gal. 3:29). So the entire church is Israel (Rev. 21:9,12, 1 Pet. 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Mt. 26:28, 1 Cor. 11:25, 2 Cor. 3:6, Heb. 9:15), & the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jer. 31:31-34, Jn. 4:22b). Jn. 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Cor. 12:13, Eph. 4:4-6, Rev. 21:9,12). Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Rom. 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Rom. 2:29, Philip. 3:3, Col. 2:11-13).

eclipsenow said in post 122:

The difference is we have more of a sense of urgency, as we're not delaying the Lord's return in our theology by insisting XYZ has to come first.

Regarding "delaying the Lord's return", if you're referring to Mt. 24:48-51's evil servant, he became evil & was surprised by the Lord's return because when the Lord didn't return sometime before or during the tribulation, the evil servant thought the Lord was indefinitely "delaying" his return (Mt. 24:48). But in fact the Lord's return won't be delayed at all, but will occur "immediately after the tribulation" (Mt. 24:29-31). Also, even when we know this truth, we still need to live each day knowing any of us could die at any time (Lk. 12:20, Jas. 4:14).

eclipsenow said in post 122:

It really could happen in 5 seconds! Or 50,000 years. We don't know.

Regarding "It really could happen in 5 seconds", that isn't possible with regard to Jesus' second coming because of the reasons given in the "It could happen at any moment" part of post 104.

Regarding "It really could happen in ... 50,000 years", Jesus may not wait that long to return because of the reasons given in the "Mt. 24:34" part of post 67.

Regarding "We don't know", we could come to know at some point in the future because of the reasons given in the "Mt. 24:36" part of post 67.

*******

eclipsenow said in post 116:

Then why call them Elders? Why not just call them angels?

They could be elder angels.

eclipsenow said in post 116:

But you want to insert millennia into Revelation at some point, and so you would effectively render my prayers 'unread' until the end of time!

No, because, regarding "at some point", not until the point of Rev. 6.

eclipsenow said in post 116:

Isaiah 11:2 doesn't support 7 Spirits.

It can, if the seven Spirits are the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of wisdom, the Spirit of understanding, the Spirit of counsel, the Spirit of might, the Spirit of knowledge, and the Spirit of the fear of the Lord.

eclipsenow said in post 116:

The 3.5 years is the whole of church history, and Satan has been ruling and overcoming Christians all that time.

The 42 months (Rev. 13:5, 11:2b) of the Antichrist's future, Luciferian/Satanic worldwide reign of terror (Rev. 13:4-18, 12:9) will be literal. That's why other verses refer to that same future time period as lasting 3.5 years (Rev. 12:14, Dan. 7:25, 12:7), or 1,260 days (Rev. 12:6, 11:3), and why the many details of Rev. 13 were never fulfilled during a past time period.

The still-unfulfilled 1,260-day time period in the prophecies of Rev. 12:6,14, 11:3,2, 13:5, Dan. 7:25, 12:7 will be 1,260 literal days, just as, for example, the 3 days in the fulfilled prophecies of Lk. 9:22, 18:33 were 3 literal days.

Bible2 · Feb 28, 2013

Frenchfrye said in post 120:

36"But the exact day and hour? No one knows that, not even heaven's angels, not even the Son. Only the Father knows."

Regarding the first part of Mt. 24:36, we could come to know the exact day of Jesus' return at some point in the future because of the reasons given in the "Mt. 24:36" part of post 67.

Regarding the second part of Mt. 24:36, at the time of his Olivet Discourse in the 1st century AD, Jesus didn't know the date (as in the year, month, & day) of his 2nd coming (Mk. 13:32), but he did know he would return immediately after the future tribulation of Mt. 24/Rev. chs. 6-18 (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8, Rev. 19:7-20:6, cf. Jn. 16:12), & that this tribulation will include the antitypical fulfillment of the abomination of desolation (Mt. 24:15, Dan. 11:31). Also, regarding Jesus not knowing, before his resurrection, the date of his 2nd coming (Mk. 13:32), that was because at his incarnation (Jn. 1:1,14), he temporarily laid aside (Philip. 2:6-8) his divine omniscience with regard to his own conscious human knowledge (Mk. 13:32) in order to completely share in our mortal human condition (Heb. 2:17) & be tempted in every way that we're tempted (Heb. 4:15). Nonetheless, he still remained God (Jn. 10:30, 1:1,14, 1 Tim. 3:16). And after his physical resurrection into fully-human immortality (Lk. 24:39), he regained his divine omniscience (Col. 2:2b-3), just as he regained his divine omnipotence (Mt. 28:18). And so now he does know the date of his 2nd coming.

Keachian · Feb 28, 2013

Matthew 24 is immediate up to the end of the description of the abomination of desolation, Jesus is drawing on the fulfillment of the Daniel prophecies concerning the abomination in the Macabbean riots and applying it into the near future when Titus pulls the temple apart such that no brick lies upon another.

Frenchfrye · Feb 28, 2013

Bible2 said:
Regarding the first part of Mt. 24:36, we could come to know the exact day of Jesus' return at some point in the future because of the reasons given in the "Mt. 24:36" part of post 67.

Regarding the second part of Mt. 24:36, at the time of his Olivet Discourse in the 1st century AD, Jesus didn't know the date (as in the year, month, & day) of his 2nd coming (Mk. 13:32), but he did know he would return immediately after the future tribulation of Mt. 24/Rev. chs. 6-18 (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8, Rev. 19:7-20:6, cf. Jn. 16:12), & that this tribulation will include the antitypical fulfillment of the abomination of desolation (Mt. 24:15, Dan. 11:31). Also, regarding Jesus not knowing, before his resurrection, the date of his 2nd coming (Mk. 13:32), that was because at his incarnation (Jn. 1:1,14), he temporarily laid aside (Philip. 2:6-8) his divine omniscience with regard to his own conscious human knowledge (Mk. 13:32) in order to completely share in our mortal human condition (Heb. 2:17) & be tempted in every way that we're tempted (Heb. 4:15). Nonetheless, he still remained God (Jn. 10:30, 1:1,14, 1 Tim. 3:16). And after his physical resurrection into fully-human immortality (Lk. 24:39), he regained his divine omniscience (Col. 2:2b-3), just as he regained his divine omnipotence (Mt. 28:18). And so now he does know the date of his 2nd coming.

hey I'm gonna go with what my bible says.

Bethwhite · Feb 28, 2013

progmonk said:
Matthew 24 is immediate up to the end of the description of the abomination of desolation, Jesus is drawing on the fulfillment of the Daniel prophecies concerning the abomination in the Macabbean riots and applying it into the near future when Titus pulls the temple apart such that no brick lies upon another.

Luke 19:41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peacebut now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of Gods coming to you.

Romans!

Luke 21:20 When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The Maccabees/Epiphanes occurred over 100 years before Jesus. What Jesus described occurred after He spoke those words.

Keachian · Feb 28, 2013

Bethwhite said:
The Maccabees/Epiphanes occurred over 100 years before Jesus. What Jesus described occurred after He spoke those words.

I agree, what I think Christ is doing is calling back their minds to that and saying "what's coming next is going to be worse"

Bethwhite · Feb 28, 2013

progmonk said:
I agree, what I think Christ is doing is calling back their minds to that and saying "what's coming next is going to be worse"

Oh, so you saying Jesus was referring to Epiphanes instead of the Roman armies surrounding Israel, reminding them of Ephiphanes, saying the Roman armies would be like Epiphanes?

The desolation caused by the Roman armies lasted over 1900 years.

What Epiphanes did was horrendous but what the Romans were allowed by God to do was far worse.

Keachian · Feb 28, 2013

Bethwhite said:
Oh, so you saying Jesus was referring to Epiphanes instead of the Roman armies surrounding Israel, reminding them of Ephiphanes, saying the Roman armies would be like Epiphanes?

The desolation caused by the Roman armies lasted over 1900 years.

No, it's lasted all time, the Jewish state is not God giving them back their blessing, God is still pouring out his wrath, they have the chance of being God's people again if only they would turn and acknowledge his Son.

What Epiphanes did was horrendous but what the Romans were allowed by God to do was far worse.

That's what I said.

Bethwhite · Feb 28, 2013

progmonk said:
No, it's lasted all time, the Jewish state is not God giving them back their blessing, God is still pouring out his wrath, they have the chance of being God's people again if only they would turn and acknowledge his Son.

That's what I said.

Prophecy shows that they will and it certainly involves the Jewish State of Israel, and their capital Jerusalem.

Keachian · Feb 28, 2013

Bethwhite said:
Prophecy shows that they will and it certainly involves the Jewish State of Israel, and their capital Jerusalem.

Scripture please

Bethwhite · Feb 28, 2013

progmonk said:
Scripture please

Zech 12:The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. 2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
4 In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the Lord of hosts their God.
6In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
7 The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Hosea 6: Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. 2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Ezek 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
10 Thus saith the Lord God; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.
13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?
14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord God; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?
15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
17 Thus saith the Lord God; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?
18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that my fury shall come up in my face.
19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord God: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the Lord.

Psalm 83:Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God.
2 For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head.
3They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones.
4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
5 For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee:
6 The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes;
7 Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre;
8 Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot.

Ezek 28:21 Son of man, set thy face against Zidon, and prophesy against it,
22 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Zidon; and I will be glorified in the midst of thee: and they shall know that I am the Lord, when I shall have executed judgments in her, and shall be sanctified in her.
23 For I will send into her pestilence, and blood into her streets; and the wounded shall be judged in the midst of her by the sword upon her on every side; and they shall know that I am the Lord.
24 And there shall be no more a pricking brier unto the house of Israel, nor any grieving thorn of all that are round about them, that despised them; and they shall know that I am the Lord God.
25 Thus saith the Lord God; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob.
26 And they shall dwell safely therein, and shall build houses, and plant vineyards; yea, they shall dwell with confidence, when I have executed judgments upon all those that despise them round about them; and they shall know that I am the Lord their God.

There's a lot more, but that'll get you started.

Gnarwhal · Feb 28, 2013

Nope.

Keachian · Feb 28, 2013

Bethwhite said:
There's a lot more, but that'll get you started.

Dr.Cox - Master of saying "NO!" - YouTube

You haven't provided any substantial reason why I should change my belief that all the prophecies of the Old Testament that are commonly brought up to endorse the dispy heresy apply to Christ. Try again.

Interplanner · Feb 28, 2013

Beth,
you need to hear a masterful teacher like Hanegraff who just spoke on this, especially on what was in Ezek's mind in 38-39. It is extremely important to track with the apostles on this and not go off on a tangent that shows nowhere in the NT. Sorry I don't have a link, but I'm sure his material is archived this fresh (1.5 hours ago) and in print form.

--Inter

Bethwhite · Feb 28, 2013

progmonk said:
You haven't provided any substantial reason why I should change my belief that all the prophecies of the Old Testament that are commonly brought up to endorse the dispy heresy apply to Christ. Try again.

What?

What's a dispy?

I have absolutely no idea why you are rejecting the prophecies of God's Word.

All I did was quote prophetic scripture (and there's a lot more, by the way) and your answer was basically, "no".

So...??? What are you saying? "No" to God's prophecies? "No" to God's own Word? "No" to ???

What are you doing here if you don't trust what God said?

Gnarwhal · Feb 28, 2013

Bethwhite said:
What?

What's a dispy?

I have absolutely no idea why you are rejecting the prophecies of God's Word.

All I did was quote prophetic scripture (and there's a lot more, by the way) and your answer was basically, "no".

So...??? What are you saying? "No" to God's prophecies? "No" to God's own Word? "No" to ???

What are you doing here if you don't trust what God said?

A dispy = dispensationalist = a heretical belief system that's only 170 or so years old, as in it originated in the 1830's.

The OT prophecies were not about events that are as yet unfulfilled, rather it was all fulfilled and completed in Christ.

Bethwhite · Feb 28, 2013

Big Fudge said:
A dispy = dispensationalist = a heretical belief system that's only 170 or so years old, as in it originated in the 1830's.

Oh, well, I don't follow the doctrines of men. Just scripture for me.

The OT prophecies were not about events that are as yet unfulfilled, rather it was all fulfilled and completed in Christ.

By Christ - yes
Through Christ - yes

There are many, many yet unfulfilled prophecies regarding the church, Jerusalem, Israel, and the world. It is by/through Christ's sacrifice as well as God's promises that they will be fulfilled.

predicting Christ's coming

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