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Predetermination- Calvinism?

theseed

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herzblutx88 said:
If calvinists believe that they getting into heaven is predetermined doesnt that contradict free will? If they are predetermined in essence doesnt that mean some people are born to go to hell?
No and No. Calvinsim does not contradict free will. All people are born sinners and therefore deserve hell. God inspires people to come to Him the way he inspired the writers of the bible to write. He inspired them in a way that was consistant with thier personality and situation.

IV. Providence

God from eternity, decrees or permits all things that come to pass, and perpetually upholds, directs, and governs all creatures and all events; yet so as not in any wise to be the author or approver of sin nor to destroy the free will and responsibility of intelligent creatures.
Does not destroy man's so-called "free will." The will of man is his desire, wish or choice. His choice is sin. John 3:19, 20; 5:40; 3:11; 2:2, 3; 4:17-19; Jer. 17-9; 13:23; etc. Man "freely" chooses sin and by God's grace the elect freely choose Christ --Ps. 65:4; 110:3; John 6:44, 65; Acts 13:48. Lazarus "freely" rotted, but at the word of Christ he "freely" came forth (John 11). So do the elect of God.
Does not destroy the responsibility of man. Men are responsible for whatever light they have, be it conscience (Rom. 2:15), nature (Rom. 1:19, 20), written law (Rom. 2:1727), or the gospel (Mark 16:15, 16). Man's inability to do righteousness no more frees him from responsibility than does Satan's inability to do righteousness.
God from eternity decrees or permits all things to come to pass, and perpetually upholds, directs, and governs all creatures and all events; yet so as not in any wise to be the author or approver of sin nor to destroy the free will and responsibility of man. " (Free to act according to his nature.)




The last words of Article IV are "responsibility of man."The one thing no one can do is reconcile the responsibility of man and the sovereignty of God.



It is here that most people get into real trouble, and, especially preachers, since we are called upon to preach the whole counsel of God. What do we see in the scriptures? A God Who is Absolutely Sovereign in Creation - Redemption and Providence. And just as clearly we see the Bible teaches that man is 100% responsible.



The errors to be avoided are:



1. Soft peddling either of these subjects. If you do this, you have a God who is something less than Sovereign (not the God of the Bible) and a man who is something less than responsible. Both are 100% true - so believe - teach and preach them. Many times they are both in the same verse. Example - John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me: and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

II Tim 2:19. "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."



2. Another danger is being unwilling to go as far as the Bible goes on these subjects, or, with human reasoning, logic or speculation, to go beyond what the Bible reveals.



Deut. 29:29 is a good place to camp. " The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law."



3. The third, and probably the most common error is to try to reconcile God's Sovereignty and Man's Responsibility.



What we have here is an antinomy (this may be a new word for your vocabulary). What is an antinomy? The Shorter Oxford Dictionary defines it as "a contradiction between conclusions which seem equally logical, reasonable or necessary." In the case of biblical theology we should say "an appearance of a contradiction." To put it another way - An antinomy is when we look at two different statements, both very clear and equally true, when we consider them separately, but we cannot reconcile them to each other. This is the case with God's Sovereignty and human responsibility. They are both in the Bible - both true - but humanly we cannot reconcile them with each other.



That great Baptist preacher, Charles Haddon Spurgeon, was once asked if he could reconcile divine sovereignty and human responsibility. "I wouldn't try," he replied; "I never reconcile friends." Friends? Yes, friends. They are both in the same book -- the Bible.
http://www.founders.org/library/reis1/reis.html
 
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theseed

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Bulldog said:
Seed, we believe in the same thing, just different ways to describe it. :)
Yes, but you should not tell people it violates "free will". Since everbody knows that God does not "force" anybody. Many people reject Calvinistic theology because they think it makes people robots. This is a prevailing myth, and we need to make sure that others know the truth.
 
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herzblutx88

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Then what do they mean by predetermination?

Does not destroy man's so-called "free will." The will of man is his desire, wish or choice. His choice is sin. John 3:19, 20; 5:40; 3:11; 2:2, 3; 4:17-19; Jer. 17-9; 13:23; etc. Man "freely" chooses sin and by God's grace the elect freely choose Christ --Ps. 65:4; 110:3; John 6:44, 65; Acts 13:48. Lazarus "freely" rotted, but at the word of Christ he "freely" came forth (John 11). So do the elect of God.

That doesnt make sense- It cant be free will and predetermination at the same time. If you are predetermined to go to hell before you are born where is the free will in that. Of course a person has free will to decide things during life so it is no predetermination at all that gets a person into heaven, its the decisions they make during their lives.
 
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theseed

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Herz said:
If you are predetermined to go to hell before you are born where is the free will in that.

That's why we need Christ to atone for our sins. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Rom. 3.23). And the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is enternal life (Rom. 6.23).

So we can't free will ourselves into heaven because of sin. But we have Christ.

Of course a person has free will to decide things during life so it is no predetermination at all that gets a person into heaven, its the decisions they make during their lives.

God gift is for everybody, but not everbody accepts it because they are dead spiritually and need the Holy Spirit to believe. But the offer is always there. And keep in mind, God turns away no body who seeks him. We know somone is elect because they seek God.

Read Romans 9, and you will understand the God does elect people and determine things. This can't be ignored. Election is in the bible. It is up to you to decide what it means.

 
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herzblutx88

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Well I dont think predetermination is the right word for the meaning. If you use the word that way then, we are all predetermined for hell but it is up to US to change that by believing in God. I guess its all about how you look at it.

Also- Is there a difference between lutherans and calvanists?
 
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theseed

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Herz said:
Also- Is there a difference between lutherans and calvanists?

Not much, they believe God choses who is saved and those who are not saved are condemned because of thier unbelief.

Some people believe that God regenerates us, our spirit, before we believe. It is this regeneration that gives us the ability to seek God. Others believe that this happens after we believe in Christ, and in some cases, like Lutherans, not until baptism.

37. But as earnestly as we maintain that there is an election of grace, or a predestination to salvation, so decidedly do we teach, on the other hand, that there is no election of wrath, or predestination to damnation. Scripture plainly reveals the truth that the love of God for the world of lost sinners is universal, that is, that it embraces all men without exception, that Christ has fully reconciled all men unto God, and that God earnestly desires to bring all men to faith, to preserve them therein, and thus to save them, as Scripture testifies, 1 Tim. 2:4: "God will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." No man is lost because God has predestined him to eternal damnation. -- Eternal election is a cause why the elect are brought to faith in time, Acts 13:48; but election is not a cause why men remain unbelievers when they hear the Word of God. The reason assigned by Scripture for this sad fact is that these men judge themselves unworthy of everlasting life, putting the Word of God from them and obstinately resisting the Holy Ghost, whose earnest will it is to bring also them to repentance and faith by means of the Word, Act 13:46; 7:51; Matt. 23:37.
Lutheran Chruch Missiouri Synod

http://old.www.lcms.org/belief/doct-14.html
 
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herzblutx88

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Well even as I a lutheran have to disagree with the church. I was baptized as a child but I believe more in God now than any other time in my life. I may have already told you I was an agnostic for about two years. I first started questioning if I really existed, why I existed, scientific proof until I finaly found God. I think that he led me to where I am now and that me coming to this site was not an accident. Donno just my opinion I guess.
 
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