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Predestined to Sin?

wmc1982

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I am a new Calvinist and I thank you all for the great links in the New Calvinist sticky thread. I see have a lot to read and learn. I know I would probably find this answer somewhere in the Reformed threads or in some of those links you all gave, but I figure I'll go ahead and ask this now...

Are we predestined to sin? Do we even have a choice?

The reason I ask is not to justify myself for the sins I commit. I am just wondering about my past. For about 8 years of my life, I was deeply involved in the drug culture. All my friends used drugs as well as myself. I deeply thank God for bringing me out of that dark path. I now hope to get my masters degree and be a drug and alcohol counselor as well as writing books on the subject.

So did God just allow me to be in that sin, or did He predestine me to commit those sins as my training so I could help others with the same types of problems?

Thanks for any help,

Will
 

kimlva

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You will probably hear a variety of answers, even within the reformed faith. For me personally, I believe God has ordained every single detail that happens. And that each one has a purpose, even if we cannot see it or make any sense out of it. I believe He does every single thing for His greatest glory, and our (the elect's) greatest good. Remember Jesus said that not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from Him (it does not say apart from His knowledge, as I was wrongly taught for years).

I think a great deal of harm comes when people try to explain away things that God has done to make Him somehow more "loving" and softer and more appealing. Whatever He does is just and good, just because He does it, and it needs no other explanation or excuse.

This is just my opinion, and I am sure you will get others here. :)
 
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wmc1982

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thank you for your response Kimlva. You know what, I feel that God doesn't even want me to dwell on this issue. I need to focus on being more like Him and not focus on the past or future sins I commit.

We don't have to understand everything about God and we can't on this Earth. He has given us all we need to know and more, in His Word. And if we seek Him with a pure heart, then I trust He will direct our paths.

I love it when God answers my prayers. Praise be to Him.
 
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wmc1982

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....while we, are still guilty for the sin we commit.

I just wanted to add that thought :)
and for us to be guilty of something, we must first of chosen to commit that sin. Like I said in another free will thread, I am starting to believe that we do have a certain degree of choice making in life. Otherwise, we would be puppets/robots, and I don't think that was God's intention.

I may be wrong though, as I surely am on many things.
 
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UMP

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and for us to be guilty of something, we must first of chosen to commit that sin. Like I said in another free will thread, I am starting to believe that we do have a certain degree of choice making in life. Otherwise, we would be puppets/robots, and I don't think that was God's intention.

I may be wrong though, as I surely am on many things.

I think the confusion is in how one defines "free will". Man is always free to choose coffee or tea (yet still predestined by God) but not free to choose contrary to his own nature., i.e. a bear is not free to fly.

"The carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 8:7
[SIZE=+2]M[/SIZE]an, created in God’s image, possesses a mind, a heart, and a will. The mind, or intellect, allows him to think rationally, not by sheer instinct like an animal. The heart, or emotion, enables him to feel, unlike a robot or machine, human experience. The will, or volition, enables him to make decisions and choices that have moral consequences. It is his capacity for action, a capacity that allows him to choose this over that and those instead of these.

[SIZE=+2]I[/SIZE]n his unfallen state, man was good and very good. The fall, however, affected every part of man’s being. Man’s mind, by virtue of his fallen nature was darkened, incapable of understanding the things of the Spirit of God (Ephesians 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:14). Further, his emotions are now deceptive and untrustworthy (Jeremiah 17:9) and his will, that is, his ability to choose good over evil and right over wrong, is bound. The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith reads,

"Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation, so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to commit himself, or to prepare himself thereto."

[SIZE=+2]S[/SIZE]o, is man free? If by the word "free" one means that people have the ability to make certain choices on their own (i.e. free from compulsion, force, or coercion), then the answer is "yes." For example, people have the ability to choose to go to the store or stay home, to buy a newspaper or not, to eat beef or to eat fish, etc.; such choices are within the natural capacity of human beings. People are free to act according to their nature.

If by the word "free", however, one means free without any limitation, then the answer is "no." People are not free to act contrary to their nature. I cannot choose to fly. Yes, I can choose to travel by airplane, but I cannot choose to sprout wings or become a bird. My will, you see, is not entirely free. It is bound by the limits of my nature. We do not have the freedom to be anything we are not.

Man, in other words, is not free to act outside the boundaries of his human nature. He cannot live the life of a fish in the ocean or fly like a bird in the air without external resources enabling him to duplicate his natural environment. Just as that is true on a natural level, it is also true on a spiritual level. In his fallen state, man cannot choose to be righteous. The Ethiopian cannot by his own sheer willpower, change the color of his skin, nor the leopard his spots. Neither can those whose nature is depraved voluntarily do good (Jeremiah 13:23). Man’s will is enslaved to his sinful nature. Left to himself, his only capacity is fleshly.

Unregenerate people are not free to choose righteousness or wickedness; they are, on the contrary, "free from righteousness" (Romans 6:20). By nature, man’s will is a "will not" (Psalm 10:4; Psalm 58:3; John 5:40, Isaiah 26:10). His only inclination is toward carnality. The natural man will never choose anything but sin, because he cannot operate outside the parameters of his sinful nature (Romans 8:7). The nature of man’s will is not free.

Not until his nature is changed does he have the desire or the capacity to choose righteousness. Prior to God’s work of regeneration in the soul, therefore, man’s will is bound by the old nature. In regeneration, the fallen sinner is made "willing in the day of God’s power" (Psalm 110:3). He is given a new nature, a righteous nature, capable of responding to God. Because the old nature is not eradicated, however, a warfare between the Spirit and the flesh ensues (Romans 7) - requiring deliberate and decisive efforts of the will for righteousness (Romans 6:11-23). In other words, the believer must choose, every day, between the options of serving sin or righteousness (Joshua 24:15; Romans 6:13). With such a conflict facing us, we should be glad that the Holy Spirit will continue to work within us "both to will and to do His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

Because man’s will, apart from the new nature given in the new birth, is bound, it is incapable of choosing eternal life. Man’s only hope of eternal life, then, is rooted in God’s initiative and choice. Salvation, in other words, depends on God’s choice, not mine, and upon His sovereign will, not man’s fallen will (John 1:13; Romans 9:16; Ephesians 1:5,11; Hebrews 10:10). That, my friend, is a firm foundation!

Michael Gowens
 
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Cajun Huguenot

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I think the confusion is in how one defines "free will". Man is always free to choose coffee or tea (yet still predestined by God) but not free to choose contrary to his own nature., i.e. a bear is not free to fly.

"The carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 8:7
[SIZE=+2]M[/SIZE]an, created in God’s image, possesses a mind, a heart, and a will. The mind, or intellect, allows him to think rationally, not by sheer instinct like an animal. The heart, or emotion, enables him to feel, unlike a robot or machine, human experience. The will, or volition, enables him to make decisions and choices that have moral consequences. It is his capacity for action, a capacity that allows him to choose this over that and those instead of these.

[SIZE=+2]I[/SIZE]n his unfallen state, man was good and very good. The fall, however, affected every part of man’s being. Man’s mind, by virtue of his fallen nature was darkened, incapable of understanding the things of the Spirit of God (Ephesians 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:14). Further, his emotions are now deceptive and untrustworthy (Jeremiah 17:9) and his will, that is, his ability to choose good over evil and right over wrong, is bound. The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith reads,

"Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation, so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to commit himself, or to prepare himself thereto."

[SIZE=+2]S[/SIZE]o, is man free? If by the word "free" one means that people have the ability to make certain choices on their own (i.e. free from compulsion, force, or coercion), then the answer is "yes." For example, people have the ability to choose to go to the store or stay home, to buy a newspaper or not, to eat beef or to eat fish, etc.; such choices are within the natural capacity of human beings. People are free to act according to their nature.

If by the word "free", however, one means free without any limitation, then the answer is "no." People are not free to act contrary to their nature. I cannot choose to fly. Yes, I can choose to travel by airplane, but I cannot choose to sprout wings or become a bird. My will, you see, is not entirely free. It is bound by the limits of my nature. We do not have the freedom to be anything we are not.

Man, in other words, is not free to act outside the boundaries of his human nature. He cannot live the life of a fish in the ocean or fly like a bird in the air without external resources enabling him to duplicate his natural environment. Just as that is true on a natural level, it is also true on a spiritual level. In his fallen state, man cannot choose to be righteous. The Ethiopian cannot by his own sheer willpower, change the color of his skin, nor the leopard his spots. Neither can those whose nature is depraved voluntarily do good (Jeremiah 13:23). Man’s will is enslaved to his sinful nature. Left to himself, his only capacity is fleshly.

Unregenerate people are not free to choose righteousness or wickedness; they are, on the contrary, "free from righteousness" (Romans 6:20). By nature, man’s will is a "will not" (Psalm 10:4; Psalm 58:3; John 5:40, Isaiah 26:10). His only inclination is toward carnality. The natural man will never choose anything but sin, because he cannot operate outside the parameters of his sinful nature (Romans 8:7). The nature of man’s will is not free.

Not until his nature is changed does he have the desire or the capacity to choose righteousness. Prior to God’s work of regeneration in the soul, therefore, man’s will is bound by the old nature. In regeneration, the fallen sinner is made "willing in the day of God’s power" (Psalm 110:3). He is given a new nature, a righteous nature, capable of responding to God. Because the old nature is not eradicated, however, a warfare between the Spirit and the flesh ensues (Romans 7) - requiring deliberate and decisive efforts of the will for righteousness (Romans 6:11-23). In other words, the believer must choose, every day, between the options of serving sin or righteousness (Joshua 24:15; Romans 6:13). With such a conflict facing us, we should be glad that the Holy Spirit will continue to work within us "both to will and to do His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

Because man’s will, apart from the new nature given in the new birth, is bound, it is incapable of choosing eternal life. Man’s only hope of eternal life, then, is rooted in God’s initiative and choice. Salvation, in other words, depends on God’s choice, not mine, and upon His sovereign will, not man’s fallen will (John 1:13; Romans 9:16; Ephesians 1:5,11; Hebrews 10:10). That, my friend, is a firm foundation!

Michael Gowens
UMP,

This is very well said!

I would add, and it is already in your wonderful statement, fallen men follow their nature. They are not forced, coerced nor controlled like a puppet when they sin. They sin freely by their own choice, to sin is natural to fallen, unregenrate man.

When we are "saved" God changes our heart. With a new heart we choose to follow the Lord. In this we also act freely, but it is because God has made us new creatures in Christ Jesus.

Coram Deo,
Kenith
 
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nill

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I seem to be the official spokesperson for this book. I am always recommending it: The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Loraine Boettner. I am nearing completion of my own first reading. The section I just read, in fact, dealt with this very subject of sin as part of God's predestining plan.
 
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Cajun Huguenot

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I seem to be the official spokesperson for this book. I am always recommending it: The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Loraine Boettner. I am nearing completion of my own first reading. The section I just read, in fact, dealt with this very subject of sin as part of God's predestining plan.
I read it years ago. While doing so I tossed it across my bedroom, jumped up and yelled "I'm not going to believe that garbage!!!" After that out burst, I was convicted, fell on my knees and prayed "Lord I want to believe the truth, please don't let this be true." But it is and I am so thankful.

It is a GREAT book.

In Christ,
Kenith
 
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