Samson Reaper
Active Member
Charles Spurgeon has a sermon on this where he deals with it extensively. Google Spurgeon - Sermon 1516 and you will find it. A snippet is on this thread:
Upvote
0
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
How does God desire all men to be saved then as stated in 1 Timothy 2:4 - 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth
if only those who he draws can come to Lord Jesus? It seems conflicting to me at a surface level.
TULIP REFUTED by a Calvinist.
“God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” 1 Timothy 2:3, 4.
I am trying to discover the truth about it. I'd like to see what some people think about a few verses.
John 6:44 - 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
and
John 6:65 - He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."
vs
John 12:32 - And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
What's the difference in the drawing in the two of these? And what do they mean with the below in mind too.
Romans 9:16-24 - 16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”a]">[a] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”b]">[b] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
vs
2 Peter 3:9 - 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance
and
1 Timothy 2:1-4 - 1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
How do you make sense of these verses together? I don't understand how someone can be prepared for destruction. I don't believe my understanding of it is right, as I don't think God would create something just to torture it for eternity even if that's what the verses sound like they're implying to me. I don't think he's like that. Especially since it says he wants all people to be saved. And doesn't want anyone to perish. How can you not want anyone to perish and all to be saved, yet prepare anyone for destruction ahead of time? It seems to contradict to me, yet I know the Bible doesn't contradict. So I'm understanding something incorrectly.
Yes. I rather think this statement is quite important.The truth is predestine is a word used a number of times in the New Testament so the question isn't whether it's true but what does it mean
Well, that's interesting, every place hell is mentioned in Scripture eternal fires are as well.If you're talking about "torture for eternity" I'd ask what scriptures you have to support that view. In the "Controversial Christianity" section of the forum I've a thread on support of that most "dreaded and fearsome" doctrine of Universal Reconciliation; feel free to join in, or, support the "eternal torture" doctrine here. I think you'll find it severly short of any support whatsoever.
If you're meaning "destruction precedes rebuilding" there are countless supporting verses such as:
Hosea 13:9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.
So you see destruction leading to help in God. Destruction is not "the albeit ending of endings" but a step in restoration, and building anew.
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
The word translated "lost" here means "perished" or "ruined/destroyed" and is translated with those words elsewhere. So, to be "lost/perished/destroyed/ruined" is again not the "be-all-end-all" but a step in the direction of reconciliation.
Even death itself is not the "be-all-end-all" as shown:
Luke 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
The parable shows a man who is alive, leaves his father, is perished and destroyed in death, repents, and is eventually reconciled to his Father who says of his son, that he "was dead, and is alive again": so the concept of "destruction/death/ruin/lost" is not the "full end" in scripture, but a step toward the full end, which is reconciliation. For the prodigal son, his death and destruction was the impetus of his reconciliation.
Agreed...Have all people heard the gospel?
You are not understanding my words and if that is what you wish to see in my words then I will let you be to your own my only word of advice is to remember to add both who he is and the scripturesYour post has only served to reaffirm my point.
Are you doing nothing more than creating a god in your own image based upon your feelings and intuition?
Well, that's interesting, every place hell is mentioned in Scripture eternal fires are as well.
How about quoting the words of Jesus on hell.Not really. Did you know Jesus went to hell when He died?
Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Ac 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Do you think Jesus was literally burning in fire being tormented? I don't believe He was, but at any rate, there's nothing about "fires" in the verse, and usually not even connected with "hell" most of the time.
Ps 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Do you believe God is in hell? I doubt it. Also, eternality of fire doesn't support eternality of torture by any stretch of the imagination (which is where the modern concept of "hell" comes from):
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Do you think Sodom and Gomorrha are still burning to this day? They're not, the eternal fire destroyed them in one day.
Lu 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Basically, the "eternal hell" is complete fiction, a tool of fear-mongering that corrupts the doctrine of reconciliation in order to drive people away from God, and to slander God.
How about quoting the words of Jesus on hell.
Please can you show me where the New Testament God predestine damnation, or to use your words 'who will not be saved'.
Even after many years I have not found where it sat anything like this, rather the opposite- 1 Tim 2:4, I Peter 3:9 etc.
What Jimmy is trying to convey to you is that your feelings, although very meaningful to you, do not add any value to anyone else. Your mystical experiences are for your benefit, alone.You are not understanding my words and if that is what you wish to see in my words then I will let you be to your own my only word of advice is to remember to add both who he is and the scriptures
I am trying to discover the truth about it. I'd like to see what some people think about a few verses.
John 6:44 - 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
and
John 6:65 - He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."
vs
John 12:32 - And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
What's the difference in the drawing in the two of these? And what do they mean with the below in mind too.
Romans 9:16-24 - 16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”a]">[a] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”b]">[b] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
2 Peter 3:9 - 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance
and
1 Timothy 2:1-4 - 1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
How do you make sense of these verses together? I don't understand how someone can be prepared for destruction. I don't believe my understanding of it is right, as I don't think God would create something just to torture it for eternity even if that's what the verses sound like they're implying to me. I don't think he's like that. Especially since it says he wants all people to be saved. And doesn't want anyone to perish. How can you not want anyone to perish and all to be saved, yet prepare anyone for destruction ahead of time? It seems to contradict to me, yet I know the Bible doesn't contradict. So I'm understanding something incorrectly.
Why do you think Jesus was not omniscient in His incarnation?First off, you have to distinguish between God, the Son, and God, the Father. Up until after Jesus death and resurrection and ascension back to the position he originally had with his Father before anything was (ever created or came to be) With the very first thing created, God, the Son lost the full omniscience he had with his Father at that time, and went from full omniscience to partial omniscience, he was still more omniscient than any other, except for the Father himself, but he was no longer not totally, fully omniscient... He lost that when the first thing was created, and did not get it back, until after his death, resurrection, and ascension back to whence he came, his original position with the Father before anything was made...
God, the Son, as our God YHWH in the OT, Jesus Christ, the God-Man in the NT was more omniscient than any other, except the Father himself, he could predestine and predict and see ahead in many things, but not all things then, at that time, until he went back to where he was before (anything was made)...
Imagine a deck of cards, To The Father, all of the cards are the same, all aces of spades in a game of spades, to the Son, all red cards are the same, and all black cards are the same, and he can play red or else black, only one real choice... But, to us, and from our perspective, all 52 cards are all different and it seems their is a myriad of choices, when the choices only exist due to our ignorance or what we don't know... Only the Father alone knowing all, and the Son also but only before creation and after his death, resurrection and ascension... And not the time in between...
That being said, you have to know when those scriptures are talking about God, the Father, or God the Son, or the Lord...
The Father has set everyone's course and path, even God, the Son, our God's path as well... Knowing who/what/when/how each one is going to be inclined to be like ahead of time, making/creating or bringing into existence, a third to be bad eggs, and two thirds good ones, were not here to make the choice(s) but to be made to understand why we made the choices that we did, and what separates the ones who chose well, from the ones who did not choose so well, but, only in the judgment, after we die, not before or until then...
Pharaoh's heart was already inclined toward disobedience and evil, God just took advantage of what he was already inclined to be like, for his glory, honor, and greater good for his people in the end, and that is what he uses all peoples hearts who are inclined toward evil for, for his glory and honor, and the greater good of his people ultimately, in the end... One day, we'll know the why and how and what (distinguishes or separates us from them) one day, in the judgement we'll know... We'll all know, even the wicked ones, who's (spirits) in and with them, will have to stay here, and never transcend, but will spend eternity here in hell, and never, ever go to heaven, continually recycled in a evil sinful wicked system, and in wicked sinful men, forever...
God Bless!
He desires everyone to respond to His call. It is the work of the Holy Spirit. Some don't respond.
If I used a dog whistle, a good whistle, and the dogs do not come, whose fault is it? The whistle or the dogs?
Read Romans chapters 8 through 10. Those that support that Only God chooses who is saved only read one chapter (Calvinists). Those that believe that Only man chooses salvation (Arminians) only read one chapter. Both Catholics and Orthodox have found a way to reconcile the truths in the verses and came to believe that "God has predestined us but not without cause".The cause being the acceptance.
If I loved the dogs, and knew they would not come- I would blow the whistle anyway. Even if I knew none would come.
Do you ever do something for love that you knew would accomplish no purpose? Have you ever done something for someone KNOWING they would not respond? It is because of love.Why? What purpose would that serve or what would that accomplish?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?