Predestination

[holyrokker]

I know A little about Arminianism and Calvinism but would like to know more and is God the only being with free will? I really dont know what to think.

These are systems of doctrine that presuppose certain concepts as being true, and constrain biblical interpretation into agreement with those presuppostions.

I recommend avoiding both traps.

 

[Kutte]

If I commit a crime out of my free will I am predestined to go to prison provided I am being found guilty.

On the other hand, if I am predestined to go to heaven or hell, I lack any free will, because I have no choice.

Kutte

 

[RefCath]

If I commit a crime out of my free will I am predestined to go to prison provided I am being found guilty.

On the other hand, if I am predestined to go to heaven or hell, I lack any free will, because I have no choice.

Kutte

Not quite; we have free will however our will is enslaved to sin and so we cannot will to have faith, rather it is a gift from God. This gift is given to those God has chosen before hand (elected) and whom he has determined will be saved.

So in 2 Timothy 1:9-11 we read

He has saved us and called us to a holy life — not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher.
​

 

[Cassidy]

Not quite; we have free will however our will is enslaved to sin and so we cannot will to have faith, rather it is a gift from God. This gift is given to those God has chosen before hand (elected) and whom he has determined will be saved.

So in 2 Timothy 1:9-11 we read

He has saved us and called us to a holy life — not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher.
​

 

[holyrokker]

...our will is enslaved to sin and so we cannot will to have faith...

Hmm... Where did you get this idea?

 

[RefCath]

Hmm... Where did you get this idea?

The following demonstrate that we are by nature slaves to sin:

• "Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin." - John 8:34
• "For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin" - Romans 6:6

The following demonstrate that we are unable to will to have faith:

• Can an Ethiopian change his skin or a leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil." - Jeremiah 13:32

There are more verses but that is pretty explicit. No orthodox Christian has taught that man can turn to God on his own ability, that is what Pelagius taught and he was condemned by the Church.

 

[Kutte]

Cassidy,

In reference to Paul's statement:
Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man, many were made sinners,

Response,

Well now, in this case I don't feel guilty for being a 'sinner' because some other guy sinned.
It's the same as saying, this person commited a crime but I am also guilty of this crime although I never met or associated with this particular person.

Want me to believe in what Paul has to say in many ways? Thanks, but no thanks.
It's just one more instance of Paul's foggy attitudes.

God bless, Kutte

 

[holyrokker]

our will is enslaved to sin and so we cannot will to have faith,

The following demonstrate that we are by nature slaves to sin:

• "Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin." - John 8:34
• "For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin" - Romans 6:6

The following demonstrate that we are unable to will to have faith:

• Can an Ethiopian change his skin or a leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil." - Jeremiah 13:32

How do these verse indicate that a man's will is enslaved?

A man can will to be free, but is still enslaved by passion. Our will to be free cannot free us. But how does that mean that we cannot choose to cry out to God and plead for His grace and mercy?

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Sounds a lot like choice.

Deuteronomy 30:19-20
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him

 

[RefCath]

But how does that mean that we cannot choose to cry out to God and plead for His grace and mercy?

Because we know that by nature we do not seek God, "All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one" (Ps. 14:3 cf. Rom. 3).

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

This is directed to Christians, i.e. those who have been regenerated by the Spirit's work and who can choose.

Deuteronomy 30:19-20
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him

God's command does not impy our ability; moreover the whole point of God giving the law was to demonstrate that we are unable to keep it and hence drive us to seek salvation in Jesus who kept the law for us.

See "Radical Corruption" by R. C. Sproul.

 

[holyrokker]

Because we know that by nature we do not seek God, "All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one" (Ps. 14:3 cf. Rom. 3).

"All have turned away" - Doesn't turning one direction or another require choice?
"all have become corrupt" - Doesn't this imply that at one time all were not currupt?

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

This is directed to Christians, i.e. those who have been regenerated by the Spirit's work and who can choose.

Does this mean that Christians can choose to become slaves to sin once again, which leads to death?

God's command does not impy our ability;

God commands us to do something we are incapable of doing, then punishes us because we failed to do what we couldn't do?

moreover the whole point of God giving the law was to demonstrate that we are unable to keep it and hence drive us to seek salvation in Jesus who kept the law for us.

Is there any place in the Bible that says we are unable to keep the law?

 

[Cassidy]

Cassidy,

In reference to Paul's statement:
Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man, many were made sinners,

Response,

Well now, in this case I don't feel guilty for being a 'sinner' because some other guy sinned.
It's the same as saying, this person commited a crime but I am also guilty of this crime although I never met or associated with this particular person.

Want me to believe in what Paul has to say in many ways? Thanks, but no thanks.
It's just one more instance of Paul's foggy attitudes.

God bless, Kutte

I'm sorry why are you addressing a scripture in my sig and what does this have to do with the OP?

 

[HelpingHands77]

It makes sense that there is predestination. After all, if God knows all, Him being omnipresent and all, then He knows the future. Thus the future is set. Pretty simple to me

 

[wayfaring man]

A bit more on the subject -

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. <-----> Romans 8:29+30

Note how the above verse states that God predestined whom he foreknew.

And then he also calls, justifies, and glorifies them.

Yet in Jesus' explanation of the parable of the wedding feast he declares -

For many are called, but few are chosen. <-----> Matthew 22:14

Based on the verses in Romans 8 one might conclude that God only calls those whom he foreknew and predestined, ( as though that is the most efficient way to go about it, since God knows beforehand who will be saved and who will not, there's no point wasting any effort on calling those whom he knows already - won't respond appropriately.)

Yet, in Matthew 22 Jesus tells us that many are called who will not be chosen. ( Suggesting that God's call goes out to us whether we will heed it or not, perhaps to leave us no excuse, and/or to demonstrate God's willingness for all to be saved.)

And in Revelation it is said -

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. <-----> Revelation 17:14

Here we we see a third quality added to being called and chosen, namely being faithful.

Jesus tells us that he came to bring a sword and division - even to the extreme of separating close family members. ( Matthew 10:34-36 )

There's a mystery here which speaks of veiled divinity, and how that God was in Christ in such a way that only those of us who are of a disposition to love God without first seeing His overwhelmingly glorious power + beauty would be drawn to him...while those of us dominated by greed and selfish ambition would find fault with Jesus' largely "meek and lowly" representation of The Divine Nature, ( even as the one thief on an adjacent cross did murmur against him saying - If thou be Christ, save thyself and us <---> From Luke 23:39 Along with many others who found fault with Jesus - mainly those avidly seeking to be personally associated with the "high and mighty" - Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
And they were offended in him.... <-----> Matthew 13:55-57

Paul touches on this in 1st Corinthians Chapters 1+2 when he writes -

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. <-----> 1st Corinthians 1:18-21

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. <-----> 1st Corinthians 2:6-8

Evidently, this is related to God solving the problem experienced with Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels having a hard time remaining faithful to God, becoming infatuated with their own giftedness.

Wherein we who appropriately believe/respond to Christ's testimony are foreknown as those who are predestined to hear and answer the call of salvation unto holiness, by being justified and glorified as those who are elected to become both chosen and faithful. ( Thereby ensuring that we not fall into the same error as did a number of heaven's predecessors.)

There's a logic behind the nature of God's predestination.

Which is largely based upon this principle -

...Every one that exalts himself shall be abased; and he that humbles himself shall be exalted. <---> Luke 18:14

Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and before honor is humility. <-----> Proverbs 18:12

Though God loves us so much that He gave His only begotten Son so that we may be saved...this isn't only about us - as Jesus said:

I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
As the Father knows me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. <-----> John 10:14-16

( See also Hebrew 12:18-25 & Revelation 19:6-10 + 22:1-10 )

May The Lord Be Exalted !

wm

 

[HelpingHands77]

A bit more on the subject -

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. <-----> Romans 8:29+30

Note how the above verse states that God predestined whom he foreknew.

And then he also calls, justifies, and glorifies them.

Yet in Jesus' explanation of the parable of the wedding feast he declares -

For many are called, but few are chosen. <-----> Matthew 22:14

Based on the verses in Romans 8 one might conclude that God only calls those whom he foreknew and predestined, ( as though that is the most efficient way to go about it, since God knows beforehand who will be saved and who will not, there's no point wasting any effort on calling those whom he knows already - won't respond appropriately.)

Yet, in Matthew 22 Jesus tells us that many are called who will not be chosen. ( Suggesting that God's call goes out to us whether we will heed it or not, perhaps to leave us no excuse, and/or to demonstrate God's willingness for all to be saved.)

And in Revelation it is said -

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. <-----> Revelation 17:14

Here we we see a third quality added to being called and chosen, namely being faithful.

Jesus tells us that he came to bring a sword and division - even to the extreme of separating close family members. ( Matthew 10:34-36 )

There's a mystery here which speaks of veiled divinity, and how that God was in Christ in such a way that only those of us who are of a disposition to love God without first seeing His overwhelmingly glorious power + beauty would be drawn to him...while those of us dominated by greed and selfish ambition would find fault with Jesus' largely "meek and lowly" representation of The Divine Nature, ( even as the one thief on an adjacent cross did murmur against him saying - If thou be Christ, save thyself and us <---> From Luke 23:39 Along with many others who found fault with Jesus - mainly those avidly seeking to be personally associated with the "high and mighty" - Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
And they were offended in him.... <-----> Matthew 13:55-57

Paul touches on this in 1st Corinthians Chapters 1+2 when he writes -

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. <-----> 1st Corinthians 1:18-21

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. <-----> 1st Corinthians 2:6-8

Evidently, this is related to God solving the problem experienced with Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels having a hard time remaining faithful to God, becoming infatuated with their own giftedness.

Wherein we who appropriately believe/respond to Christ's testimony are foreknown as those who are predestined to hear and answer the call of salvation unto holiness, by being justified and glorified as those who are elected to become both chosen and faithful. ( Thereby ensuring that we not fall into the same error as did a number of heaven's predecessors.)

There's a logic behind the nature of God's predestination.

Which is largely based upon this principle -

...Every one that exalts himself shall be abased; and he that humbles himself shall be exalted. <---> Luke 18:14

Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and before honor is humility. <-----> Proverbs 18:12

Though God loves us so much that He gave His only begotten Son so that we may be saved...this isn't only about us - as Jesus said:

I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
As the Father knows me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. <-----> John 10:14-16

( See also Hebrew 12:18-25 & Revelation 19:6-10 + 22:1-10 )

May The Lord Be Exalted !

wm

Does one really even need scripture aside from knowing the property of omniscience that God possesses?